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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
Paulus Magnus wrote:
Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....


Quote:
Railroads and air travel immediately come to mind.




:laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard

Not your choo-choo nonsense again! Didn't you go to school? Even public schools teach about the railroads and the Chinese and the Irish and the UNION PACIFIC RAIL. The railroads were built by private enterprise, and the ones still run by private enterprise are profitable while the ones run by the government lose money, except for, as I'm sure you'd want to mention, one platform somewhere in Virginia or something like that.


And as the schools mention UP & CP were heavily subsidized in both land grants and money :fyi: Also, Conrail was profitable as is Acela, which services a number of cities in the Northeast Corridor.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:32 pm 
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The Exterminator
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Paulus Magnus wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Paulus Magnus wrote:
Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....


Quote:
Railroads and air travel immediately come to mind.




:laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard

Not your choo-choo nonsense again! Didn't you go to school? Even public schools teach about the railroads and the Chinese and the Irish and the UNION PACIFIC RAIL. The railroads were built by private enterprise, and the ones still run by private enterprise are profitable while the ones run by the government lose money, except for, as I'm sure you'd want to mention, one platform somewhere in Virginia or something like that.


And as the schools mention UP & CP were heavily subsidized in both land grants and money :fyi: Also, Conrail was profitable as is Acela, which services a number of cities in the Northeast Corridor.


Acela is one of Amtrak's 44 routes. What you're saying is like saying my convenience store had a net loss of $20,000 last month but I sure made a ton on bubble gum!

Apparently the word subsidy means something different to each of us. There was some cooperation from the government in building the railroads, no doubt. There absolutely has to be. The government was in favor of the railroad and had all this land they had just finished stealing from the Indians and decided it was a good idea to tell the railroad they could have a little strip here and there. They also issued them loans in the form of treasury bonds which were all repaid. That isn't a subsidy.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:37 pm 
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I will also say, on the article's contention that turning off the AC would stimulate more of an outdoors life in this country (which is my major pet peeve in this), that it simply doesn't follow. In places with a very active, out of doors culture, having or not having air conditioning doesn't really seem to matter one way or the other. The thing about places with that culture (Italy, France come to mind) is that they have pretty much all you could need in a very reasonable walking distance, or at most a short hop by bus or bike. Rome, Siena, Florence, Paris- my goodness, there was a café, a public square, a fountain, something to which people can flock and congregate practically every block. But we really don't seem to build or think that way. Those areas at which groups of people might gather, like cafés and such, generally seem to be chain coffee houses on main roads, meant for travelers and commuters rather than large groups of people who might want to sit down and while away an hour or three.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:44 pm 
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We have front/back porches and yards here where people can congregate.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:22 pm 
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I actually made a mistake: there are eight profitable or break-even routes, although Acela is the most profitable, and many of the other short routes can be brought up to profitability via electrification and built up to 125mph speeds (currently a project going on for CA's Capitol Corridor and Pacific Surfliner iirc). The major losses are from the very long multistate trains, which are political in nature, and tend to have rather limited ridership numbers. Without them, Amtrak would be operating at a profit.

http://subsidyscope.com/transportation/amtrak/table/

As for subsidies, I fail to see how a free ROW, government loans at a far lower interest rate than they would otherwise pay trying to float them on the private market, and tens of millions of acres of land grants which they were then free to sell for revenue, fail to qualify as subsidization.

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They say, 'We do not know how this is, but we know that God can do it.' You poor fools! God can make a cow out of a tree, but has he ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Paulus Magnus wrote:
I actually made a mistake: there are eight profitable or break-even routes, although Acela is the most profitable, and many of the other short routes can be brought up to profitability via electrification and built up to 125mph speeds (currently a project going on for CA's Capitol Corridor and Pacific Surfliner iirc). The major losses are from the very long multistate trains, which are political in nature, and tend to have rather limited ridership numbers. Without them, Amtrak would be operating at a profit.

http://subsidyscope.com/transportation/amtrak/table/

As for subsidies, I fail to see how a free ROW, government loans at a far lower interest rate than they would otherwise pay trying to float them on the private market, and tens of millions of acres of land grants which they were then free to sell for revenue, fail to qualify as subsidization.


It's easier to show a profit when you don't put half the expenses on the books.

If you can't see the difference between a loan and a subsidy then I feel we have nothing further to discuss.

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