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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:33 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Go tell someone in Bullhead City, AZ to turn their a/c off. They'll beat you to death with their walker and drag your corpse through town with their Hoveround.

Yeah, I know that was graphic. Point is, we populate many places that are nearly unlivable except for a/c, and some of those places are where seniors retire to.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:12 am 
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weunice wrote:
I want to point one more thing out. The biggest killer in the US in terms of weather is heat. In 1980 ~10,000 lost their lives in a heat wave in the United States. Chances are it didn't make national headlines but it happened. AC is life saving in cases such as these. AC is necessary in my home for the reasons I mentioned above.

Doom, I do favor incentives because I have seen them result in good things. I am not talking about huge incentives just enough to get me off the fence when I am considering something that is already good for me long term. Around here tons of small companies have sprung up to sell solar panels and high efficiency AC systems because of the tax incentives in our state. We have some of the best green friendly tax incentives in the entire United States and in a red state to boot. With incentives the people get to CHOOSE to spend tax money that might otherwise go to something they disapprove of on something they are passionate about AND they get to see a tangible outcome of their tax money. Of course, I realize there will be a market bubble created by it but getting the hardware out there is still going to keep many of these jobs in support mode for decades to come. I see this as a short term win in creating jobs and reducing demand and a long term win in maintenance jobs.

We DO what liberals only talk about ;)

I'm not a fan of businesses whose entire operation is based on government pork barrel spending. If it wasn't wasteful people would buy the stuff themselves.

You want a green solution to cut electricity costs from a/c use? Take a bulldozer and push dirt up against three sides of your house. I've seen it done. It's cheap, permanent, and effective. Even better, start building houses underground.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:40 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:49 pm 
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weunice wrote:
Around here tons of small companies have sprung up to sell solar panels and high efficiency AC systems because of the tax incentives in our state.


You don't seem to get it, any economic activity which is inherently profitable and beneficial will arise WITHOUT government 'incentives' on its own, because people will see that it is beneficial and productive and do it on their own because it is profitable and do it anyway.

If you need government incentives, then the activity is NOT profitable, beneficial or productive. And any jobs 'created' by this wasteful spending are vampire jobs which suck productivity and profit out of the economy.

This is really just 'broken windows' economic theory....the theory goes that it is actually good if someone comes by and smashes out your windows because then you go to get them replaced and this keeps the window makers employed and is good for the economy.

The problem with this argument is that it leaves out an important fact: what WOULD be done with that money which is being spent on replacing those windows if the windows were never smashed? Most likely it would have been spent on something far more useful and productive.

We would be better off if the windows had never been smashed.

In the same way, you can point to these 'jobs created by government' through 'incentives' and subsidies and the like and say 'looks like we got some great jobs what wonderful economic growth' but it is all phony, because if not for the money being diverted towards unproductive vampire jobs the money would be spent on something which was far BETTER than the useless, unproductive vampire jobs.

In the long run, these kinds of things only suck the economic vitality right out of a community and worsen the economic woes.

Was the WPA successful? By and large, no.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:05 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Give up my AC? Not in this lifetime. This twit of an author has obviously never lived through August in a deep Southern home.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:24 pm 
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ElenaMarie wrote:
Give up my AC? Not in this lifetime. This twit of an author has obviously never lived through August in a deep Southern home.

No kidding. Both of my solutions, bulldozers and tents, are better than his.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:28 pm 
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As much as I despise air conditioning, passionately because it kills my sinuses and wreaks havoc on my immune system, we simply can't get rid of it

There are days when the humidity is so high that I have difficulty breathing, I feel like I am suffocating, and as much as I hate it, I need to turn on the A/C.....

What am I supposed to do when it gets so humid I can barely breathe if I am not allowed to use the A/C? Die?

I can't say om this message board what my response would be to a request to turn off the A/C on one of those super humid days, but I can say the last seven words of my response would be 'and the horse you rode in on'

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:06 pm 
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Doom wrote:
weunice wrote:
Around here tons of small companies have sprung up to sell solar panels and high efficiency AC systems because of the tax incentives in our state.


You don't seem to get it, any economic activity which is inherently profitable and beneficial will arise WITHOUT government 'incentives' on its own, because people will see that it is beneficial and productive and do it on their own because it is profitable and do it anyway.
Doom, don't think I don't I get it. It will take longer. TV, CD players etc. cost a bunch initially. Rich people buy them, demand goes up and the cost goes down. It takes time. The same thing applies here except there is a perceived benefit to the public involved if they can speed the process up. That is my only point.

I see this as no different than wildly supported conservative initiatives here to bring business into an area by raising tax revenue and handing it over to a huge corporation. The idea there is that jobs are created locally and eventually tax revenue is generated and returned to the local government. Its public money mucking with the market. There is a giant Bass Pro Shops sitting in my town that was funded partially by a .01 sales tax that was voted in 85/15 by a civil parish that is about 70 percent Republican.

A true conservative, I suppose, would argue neither should be done. It is amazing how true conservatives seem to disappear when guns and boats are sold but cry to high heaven when solar panels are being sold.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:08 pm 
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So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....

Stuff may have cost a lot in the beginning, but it was still PROFITABLE....why should the government support activity which is not PROFITABLE? Why should anybody?

Because it is good? But if it is economically wasteful, then how can it possibly be good?

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Who's to say that liberalism doesn't have religious connotations? If this isn't the equivalent of a penitential practice or fasting then I don't know what is.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:14 am 
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Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....

Stuff may have cost a lot in the beginning, but it was still PROFITABLE....why should the government support activity which is not PROFITABLE? Why should anybody?

Because it is good? But if it is economically wasteful, then how can it possibly be good?


The ONLY thing that comes to mind for me is the NYC transit. It does not make a profit. I don't remember the details but it's something like the tunnel tolls subsidize the buses or the subway subsidizes the buses or something like that. The subway fare or tunnel tolls or bus fares do not make enough money themselves so another part of the transit system covers the expenses to run another part but both still fall short of being profitable. It is something that is needed and good... for the NYC economy.

Lisa


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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:39 am 
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Lisa1515 wrote:
Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....

Stuff may have cost a lot in the beginning, but it was still PROFITABLE....why should the government support activity which is not PROFITABLE? Why should anybody?

Because it is good? But if it is economically wasteful, then how can it possibly be good?


The ONLY thing that comes to mind for me is the NYC transit. It does not make a profit. I don't remember the details but it's something like the tunnel tolls subsidize the buses or the subway subsidizes the buses or something like that. The subway fare or tunnel tolls or bus fares do not make enough money themselves so another part of the transit system covers the expenses to run another part but both still fall short of being profitable. It is something that is needed and good... for the NYC economy.

Lisa

But is it better than the previously private mass transit that existed?

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:57 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
Lisa1515 wrote:
Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....

Stuff may have cost a lot in the beginning, but it was still PROFITABLE....why should the government support activity which is not PROFITABLE? Why should anybody?

Because it is good? But if it is economically wasteful, then how can it possibly be good?


The ONLY thing that comes to mind for me is the NYC transit. It does not make a profit. I don't remember the details but it's something like the tunnel tolls subsidize the buses or the subway subsidizes the buses or something like that. The subway fare or tunnel tolls or bus fares do not make enough money themselves so another part of the transit system covers the expenses to run another part but both still fall short of being profitable. It is something that is needed and good... for the NYC economy.

Lisa

But is it better than the previously private mass transit that existed?


It must be or they wouldn't have built the system as it is, right? I think there were trolley cars before subway tunnels. Surely, buses and/or the subway are better and more efficient than trolley cars.

Lisa


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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:05 am 
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Lisa1515 wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Lisa1515 wrote:
Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....

Stuff may have cost a lot in the beginning, but it was still PROFITABLE....why should the government support activity which is not PROFITABLE? Why should anybody?

Because it is good? But if it is economically wasteful, then how can it possibly be good?


The ONLY thing that comes to mind for me is the NYC transit. It does not make a profit. I don't remember the details but it's something like the tunnel tolls subsidize the buses or the subway subsidizes the buses or something like that. The subway fare or tunnel tolls or bus fares do not make enough money themselves so another part of the transit system covers the expenses to run another part but both still fall short of being profitable. It is something that is needed and good... for the NYC economy.

Lisa

But is it better than the previously private mass transit that existed?


It must be or they wouldn't have built the system as it is, right? I think there were trolley cars before subway tunnels. Surely, buses and/or the subway are better and more efficient than trolley cars.

Lisa

I don't think the reason liberals, or anyone, governmentalize industry is because they think it is better, but because they think it proper.

At the time I don't think it was better than before, but the subway may have been necessary and may be capable of carrying more people than other methods. In the end, the needs of NYC are such that truly only governmental authority can deal with it. They could have wielded that authority to allow private industry to build governmentally approved means of transit.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:26 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
I don't think the reason liberals, or anyone, governmentalize industry is because they think it is better, but because they think it proper.

At the time I don't think it was better than before, but the subway may have been necessary and may be capable of carrying more people than other methods. In the end, the needs of NYC are such that truly only governmental authority can deal with it. They could have wielded that authority to allow private industry to build governmentally approved means of transit.


NYC is almost always a bad example because it is unique in almost every way.

I think the subway developed into what it is now because it IS better than the various systems that were in place in the early to mid 1900's. Trolley cars, above ground railroad (the elevated train) trolley cars, horse-drawn carriages, etc. all were outdone by the implementation of the subway, which could travel across bridges to other boroughs much quicker than any other method of transportation. Buses provided a way to go cross-town.

Also... the railroad tracks are still privately owned... and I even think the Bus routes are privately owned.

Lisa


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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:10 am 
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Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....


Railroads and air travel immediately come to mind.

Quote:

Stuff may have cost a lot in the beginning, but it was still PROFITABLE....why should the government support activity which is not PROFITABLE? Why should anybody?

Because it is good? But if it is economically wasteful, then how can it possibly be good?


Because there is more to human society than merely economic profits.


As for the OP, the obvious solution is to build dozens more of nuclear power plants and provide low cost electricity without environmental harm, while at the same time, and as the more short term solution, encouraging higher energy efficiency.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:37 am 
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weunice wrote:
A true conservative, I suppose, would argue neither should be done. It is amazing how true conservatives seem to disappear when guns and boats are sold but cry to high heaven when solar panels are being sold.


I would LOVE to see you give a single example of someone who has argued that the purchase of boats or guns should be subsidized by the state. Otherwise you are just engaging in a ridiculous straw man.

Economic activity which is not productive should not be subsidized, and economic activity which is productive does not need to be subsidized.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:07 pm 
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Paulus Magnus wrote:
Doom wrote:
So your argument is basically that we have to destroy the economy in order to save it?

Name one example of something which started out as a government subsidy which eventually become profitable....


Quote:
Railroads and air travel immediately come to mind.




:laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard

Not your choo-choo nonsense again! Didn't you go to school? Even public schools teach about the railroads and the Chinese and the Irish and the UNION PACIFIC RAIL. The railroads were built by private enterprise, and the ones still run by private enterprise are profitable while the ones run by the government lose money, except for, as I'm sure you'd want to mention, one platform somewhere in Virginia or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Our electric bill was 150$ when I was in charge of the A/C unit. I've been at work and school etc etc so the husband is king of the mountain right now and that king get to pay the extra 100$ on the electric bill that jumped from 150$ to 250$.
The ridiculous need to keep that A/C kicking all day every day kills me. The need to keep it lower than 73 kills me (I rock out at 75). I am currently sitting in an office freezing my butt off because they have it set to artic in here. Yet they wonder why the darned thing freezes up every other day.
Turn your A/C off, recycle your metal, plastic, and cans, and buy secondhand items. Help save our planet because as much as people deny global warming they cannot deny the mass of trash (the size of Texas) floating around in the ocean.

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 Post subject: Re: W. Post Calls for End of Air Conditioning in Daily Life
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:41 pm 
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One thing, where we live the heat can kill - people who die from heat die from fear. They are afraid to open windows or doors. Even in very hot/humid seasons here, one is not going to die if they stay hydrated and keep the windows open and a fan blowing.

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