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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:47 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
We need to pray not only for reparation, but pray for the souls of those deceived, because we don't want the evil one to win their souls, right?

Right you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:38 pm 
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UPDATE as of 11 June 2019:

Below is the first email I sent to Cardinal Dolan's office on 27 March 2019. It's a bit sloppy due to my own bad writing and to some reformatting that occurred seemingly after I sent it. I did include a hyperlink to this very thread.
__________________________________________________
Quote:
Your Eminence Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, Archbishop of New York:

I have been a registered parishioner of the Church of Notre Dame at 114th Street and Morningside Drive since about November 2015. More frequently, however, due to my work schedule and work location in lower Manhattan, I attend Mass and make confession at the Church of St. Francis Xavier on 16th Street between 5th and 6th Avenues. I write with considerable sadness and dismay to report to you what I believe are some liturgical, sacramental, pastoral and doctrinal abuses occurring at St. Francis Xavier Parish. Some of my complaints may strike some as picayune, but others are due to practices at the Parish that I believe cannot be reconciled with or are quite contrary to Catholic teaching. I have reported these problems on a popular Catholic message board over the last few years.

The Catholic Message Board • View topic - Shouldn't Catholic parishes be...


I attended the 11:30 am Mass on Sunday, 17 March 2019 (St. Patrick's Day) at St. Francis Xavier Church. Here's what happened:
- The homily was given by a layperson, a woman who described herself as an atheist Roman Catholic. During her homily she gestured to a woman she identified as her wife.
- Near the end of the Mass, the Jesuit priest, Fr. Daniel Corrou, an interim pastor, said forty is a big number, and had a lesbian couple come to the front of the altar to acknowledge their partnership of forty years. I left the pew, stood just outside the opened inner entrance doors and waited for the Mass to end. The priest spied me and went slightly out of his way to shake my hand. "Is this a Roman Catholic parish?" I pointedly asked. "Yes" he replied. "Shouldn't traditional Catholicism have primacy if not exclusivity of place?" I then asked. "I think it does" he responded. "I don't think so" said I. He then began speaking with others and shaking their hands as they exited. Perhaps "traditional Catholicism" was not the best phrase as "orthodox Catholicism" might have been better, but I doubt there was any misunderstanding.

During June 2016, while I was working in a room four floors above 5th Avenue in a building across from the Flatiron Building, the annual Gay Pride March noisily promenaded its way south along that thoroughfare. A banner identified St. Francis Xavier Parish with roughly a dozen marchers nearby participated. The Parish has a group for homosexual men and a group for lesbians.

St. Francis Xavier Parish has promoted the now apparently annual Women's March announced (during the announcements following Communion at Mass) its occurrence despite that the Women's March is fiercely pro-direct abortion, pro-LGBTQIA rights, pro-artificial birth control and has excluded women's pro-life groups.

The "Nicene Creed" printed in the St. Francis Xavier Parish bulletin says "and became human" rather than "and became man."

In late November 2018, I made a confession to Fr. Corrou in one of the beautiful ornate confessional booths at St. Francis Xavier Church. There was no screen, however. My understanding is that in a fixed confessional a screen should be available to the penitent, even if the priest does not want it.

During one homily in 2017 or 2018, Fr. Corrou told of his lesbian friend who started a new relationship and with it a big reform in her life: she lost weight. (Well, yes, we are amidst an obesity epidemic, gluttony is a sin and sometimes contributes to obesity and I fondly recall that great big fat writer G.K. Chesterton in his biography of that great big fat Dominican St. Thomas Aquinas joking that a crescent may have been cut from the dinner table to allow the "walking wine-barrel" to sit.) Yet there was zero discussion of her reforming her sexual orientation or activities.

Fr. Corrou complained in the Parish bulletin of "homophobia," complained during a homily about a "Muslim ban" and, perhaps during the same homily as I recall, complained that his ancestors came here from abroad yet now we in the USA are unwelcoming. Yet I have never heard him discourage homosexual activity.

St. Francis Xavier Parish in 2017 or 2018 hosted Fr. James Martin, S.J. Fr. Martin's ideas about pastoral care of homosexuals are widely seen as heterodox, heretical or insufficient.

It should not be too much to expect a Catholic Mass to promote Catholicism and not something contrary to Catholic teaching. The St. Francis Xavier Parish under Fr. Corrou, sadly, is affirming homosexual relationships, nudging people to marches that demand support for artificial birth control, direct abortion and legal recognition of same-sex relationships as marriages. One might think that decades into exposure of the sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church that rules regarding screens in a fixed confessional, where some of the abuse reportedly occurred, would be respected. Some of these practices precede Fr. Corrou's assignment to St. Francis Xavier Parish, yet to me he appears to have polished them.

I will end on a slightly hopeful note. While I think many Catholics are very unfamiliar with the value of the Church Fathers to our understanding of the Deposit of Faith, the St. Patrick's Day Mass I attended at St. Francis Xavier Church included a song, Make of Our Hands a Throne, based on V. 21 of St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Mystagogical Catechesis. St. Cyril's feast day follows St. Patrick's feast day by a single day.

I am sorry to bring bad news, but I hope that you can restore Catholicism to St. Francis Xavier Parish. The Society of Jesus, I understand, has given more saints to the Church than any other order. Please note that I am submitting this to you on an email address that I normally use only for correspondence that might elicit spam email. I am using this address to protect myself from getting doxxed should this email ever come into the wrong hands (assuredly not your hands, Cardinal). Thank you very much.

Respectfully,
I did not give my full last name and I'm not here reproducing any part of the name I gave


And here is the only response I received (received 1 April 2019):
Quote:
Dear - I've removed the name,
Cardinal Dolan referred your email to me and asks if you will give permission to share your email with the pastor of St. Francis Xavier. This will be helpful in addressing the issues you relate.
Gratefully,
Msgr. Edmund J. Whalen
Vicar for Clergy


To which I replied on 2 April 2019:
Quote:
Dear Msgr. Whalen,

Yes.

Thank you very much,
again, I did not give my full last name and I'm not here reproducing any part of the name I gave


After hearing nothing further, I sent Cardinal Dolan and Msgr. Whalen the following email on 21 May 2019:
Quote:
Your Eminence Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, Archbishop of New York and Msgr. Whalen:

Nearly two months have passed since I sent you, Cardinal Dolan, my email of 27 April 2019 regarding numerous problems at St. Francis Xavier Parish. What was the response from the pastor of St. Francis Xavier Parish? I continue to attend Sunday Mass there and many of the problems I described in my original message persist.

Thank you,
I did not give my full last name and I'm not here reproducing any part of the name I gave


It is now 11 June 2019, and I've received no reply from either Cardinal Dolan or Msgr. Whalen in reply to my brief message of 21 May 2019.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:56 pm 
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A temperate and well written letter.

Withdraw all financial support and change parishes.

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There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:38 pm 
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You want the sad truth? I doubt you told His Eminence anything he didn't already know, at least in outline--that is, he doesn't know about the specific things that happened to you, but he knows about the parish. Since it's run by an order, he doesn't have complete freedom in dealing with it. I don't want to get into canon law since it's not my field, but he doesn't have the degree of control he would have over a diocesan parish.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:51 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You want the sad truth? I doubt you told His Eminence anything he didn't already know, at least in outline--that is, he doesn't know about the specific things that happened to you, but he knows about the parish. Since it's run by an order, he doesn't have complete freedom in dealing with it. I don't want to get into canon law since it's not my field, but he doesn't have the degree of control he would have over a diocesan parish.


Well, Fr. Corrou is only an interim pastor and will be leaving St. Francis Xavier in, I believe, September 2019, for a destination unknown to me. A new pastor will take charge before then. But with the current Jesuit (dis)order, I'm not hopeful about any changes. Perhaps the Cardinal Newman Society could do something, and First Things, Bill McGurn at The Wall Street Journal or Sohrab Ahmari of The New York Post might be interested in a story. First Things published An Open Letter to Georgetown Visitation just a few weeks ago. First Things may be the best bet as I have more details that might make for a good theological tale which wouldn't fit well into general purpose newspapers.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:42 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You want the sad truth? I doubt you told His Eminence anything he didn't already know, at least in outline--that is, he doesn't know about the specific things that happened to you, but he knows about the parish. Since it's run by an order, he doesn't have complete freedom in dealing with it. I don't want to get into canon law since it's not my field, but he doesn't have the degree of control he would have over a diocesan parish.

It depends, partially, on how the parish is assigned them.

There is a difference between a parish which may have a religious priest assigned as administrator (there is no thing as 'interim pastor' legally) and a parish which is also a house of that order. And different if it is one of several or the only one.

A little digging shows (as one might suspect from the name) the Church is owned by the Jesuits. Whether there is a written agreement delineating the role of diocesan authorities or not (there should be according to canon law, but probably isn't) there are plenty of things the ordinary can do. What is prudent or likely to work is another matter.

The short end is that, being of pontifical right, he has a grave duty to discuss it with the Jesuit superiors and if appropriate (and it is) urge corrective action. He may even n demand it, if it comes to it

If the superiors refuse, unfortunately, the ordinary's options are fairly drastic

1. Per Canon 679 he can expel the priest from his diocese, notifying Rome. This requires grave cause, and can only be done if cooperation with his religious superiors fail.

2. Forbid the reservation of the Eucharist and celebration of the sacraments at the parish

3. If appropriate impose or try the priest for a canonical delict e.g heresy (while it took 30_seconds on their website to find active promotion of heresy and even less to see liturg liturgical abuse, charging the administrator is another matter)

I think the point is painted. In some cases, but especially where religious come to staff an existing parish, the agreement may stipulate that the order nominate a pastor, but the bishop appoijts, etc. But I doubt that here.

Best case scenario, he is only an administrator and will be gone soon enough and the Ordinary has given input on the new appointee.

Worst case (sadly more likely) it simply has been punted, either because it is considered a lost cause or it is not a big concern to Dolan.

I can think of very few instances, short of sexual abuse or financial fraud, where bishops have successfully used their greater authority. And even back in the days of Cardinal MacIyntre who rightfully fought religious already defecting, there wasn't much public support- quite the opposite

Were I a bishop I would tremble at Ezekial 3:18

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:56 am 
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My opinion is all Catholic Parishes should be in full agreement with the teachings of the Catholic Church regardless of the authority of the the local Bishop's authority over them. Otherwise they are are not truly Catholic.

In my opinion for some Order not to be under the authority of a Bishop is a grave mistake on the part of the Apostolic Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:01 pm 
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St. Irenaeus of Lyons wrote:
I feel like writing about my experiences now and submitting the piece to some Catholic watchdog or other publication. Any suggestions? (The Wanderer, The National Catholic Register, First Things, Rorate Caeli ::): ).


There are enough folks writing things in order to stir up outrage, simply pray and love.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:03 pm 
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GKC wrote:
I suspect crypto-Episcopalians.


CryptoPiscos

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:10 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You want the sad truth? I doubt you told His Eminence anything he didn't already know, at least in outline--that is, he doesn't know about the specific things that happened to you, but he knows about the parish. Since it's run by an order, he doesn't have complete freedom in dealing with it. I don't want to get into canon law since it's not my field, but he doesn't have the degree of control he would have over a diocesan parish.


This.

You could speak to the Superior of the Order?

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:13 pm 
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1HCaAC wrote:
My opinion is all Catholic Parishes should be in full agreement with the teachings of the Catholic Church regardless of the authority of the the local Bishop's authority over them. Otherwise they are are not truly Catholic.

In my opinion for some Order not to be under the authority of a Bishop is a grave mistake on the part of the Apostolic Church.

What happens when it's a solid order in a place with an off-kilter bishop? The Church doesn't give bishops absolute power, for very good reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:02 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
GKC wrote:
I suspect crypto-Episcopalians.


CryptoPiscos



I'm copying that.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:05 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
1HCaAC wrote:
My opinion is all Catholic Parishes should be in full agreement with the teachings of the Catholic Church regardless of the authority of the the local Bishop's authority over them. Otherwise they are are not truly Catholic.

In my opinion for some Order not to be under the authority of a Bishop is a grave mistake on the part of the Apostolic Church.

What happens when it's a solid order in a place with an off-kilter bishop? The Church doesn't give bishops absolute power, for very good reasons.

I see your point.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:50 am 
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During yesterday's 11:30am Sunday Mass, Fr. Corrou said that Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing to do with sexual sin; rather, the sin was of inhospitality. He also gushed over the greatness of someone in the St. Francis Xavier community who died recently (and one who ticked many checkboxes of "intersectionality" (Fr. Corrou did not use that expression)), a transwoman of color (his expression), by which I understand him to have been speaking of a non-white male.

Does the Catholic Church have formal teaching addressing recent "gender theory?" I know, I know: Male and female he created them. But a few rare individuals are intersex.

I wonder what kind of a catena aurea regarding the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah could be built from the Fathers of the Church.

In any event, this priest is just about always chafing against Catholic teaching regarding sexuality.

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Last edited by St. Irenaeus of Lyons on Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:02 am 
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You should consider, for your own spiritual wellbeing, assisting at Mass elsewhere on Sundays.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:08 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
I can think of very few instances, short of sexual abuse or financial fraud, where bishops have successfully used their greater authority. And even back in the days of Cardinal MacIyntre who rightfully fought religious already defecting, there wasn't much public support- quite the opposite

Were I a bishop I would tremble at Ezekial 3:18

Perhaps the most unedifying case was that of Cardinal O'Boyle and his attempt to censure priests who dissented publicly from Humanae Vitae. A diocesan Ordinary could look at that case and wonder whether he should even bother trying to censure a priest.

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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:53 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
In this case, Cardinal Dolan.


Oh, yeah, that will do a LOT of good, won't it?

I am so sad for you Romans having to tolerate this destruction of your church.


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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:00 am 
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St. Irenaeus of Lyons wrote:
I've posted previously here about St. Francis Xavier, a Jesuit parish in Manhattan:

St Francis Xavier Parish in Manhattan at Gay Pride Parade.

"...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."

No screen in the confessional booth?

St. Francis Xavier parish website.

Someone advised me as a result of my reporting here to attend Mass elsewhere (I am registered in a different parish) but I had a difficult schedule this past weekend with work and other tasks so I attended the 11:30 am Mass on Sunday, 17 March 2019 (St. Patrick's Day). Here's what happened:

    The homily was given by a layperson, a woman who described herself as an atheist Roman Catholic. During her homily she gestured to a woman she identified as her wife.

    Near the end of the Mass, the Jesuit priest, an interim pastor, said forty is a big number, and had a lesbian couple come to the front of the altar to acknowledge their partnership of forty years. I left the pew, stood just outside the opened inner entrance doors and waited for the Mass to end. The priest spied me and went slightly out of his way to shake my hand. "Is this a Roman Catholic parish?" I pointedly asked. "Yes" he replied. "Shouldn't traditional Catholicism have primacy if not exclusivity of place?" I then asked. "I think it does" he responded. "I don't think so" said I. He then began speaking with others and shaking their hands as they exited.

Perhaps "traditional Catholicism" was not the best phrase as "orthodox Catholicism" might have been better, but I doubt there was any misunderstanding. I feel like writing about my experiences now and submitting the piece to some Catholic watchdog or other publication. Any suggestions? (The Wanderer, The National Catholic Register, First Things, Rorate Caeli ::): ).



My suggestion:

https://www.facebook.com/St-Marys-Byzan ... 220821818/

I know you are Roman Catholic and I know this would be strange for you at first, but the Byzantine Catholic Church gets a lot of people from the Roman Catholic Church who are fed up to the teeth with the nonsense going on right now, and until it is corrected, they make the move.

Just go one Sunday and try it out. It will fulfill your Sunday obligation and perhaps you will find rest for your soul.


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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:04 am 
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St. Irenaeus of Lyons wrote:
During yesterday's 11:30am Sunday Mass, Fr. Corrou said that Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing to do with sexual sin; rather, the sin was of inhospitality. He also gushed over the greatness of someone in the St. Francis Xavier community who died recently (and one who ticked many checkboxes of "intersectionality" (Fr. Corrou did not use that expression)), a transwoman of color (his expression), by which I understand him to have been speaking of a non-white male.

Does the Catholic Church have formal teaching addressing recent "gender theory?" I know, I know: Male and female he created them. But a few rare individuals are intersex.

I wonder what kind of a catena aurea regarding the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah could be built from the Fathers of the Church.

In any event, this priest is just about always chafing against Catholic teaching regarding sexuality.


Who was it that said "All atheism begins below the belt." ?


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 Post subject: Re: Shouldn't Catholic parishes be Catholic?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:06 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
In this case, Cardinal Dolan.


Oh, yeah, that will do a LOT of good, won't it?

I am so sad for you Romans having to tolerate this destruction of your church.

I am saddened by some Bishops of the Latin Church and delighted by some others. Let us pray for them all. :pray:

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