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 Post subject: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increased
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Yahoo News wrote:
Vatican City (AFP) - Pope Francis called Wednesday for categoric opposition to capital punishment to be written into an update of the most important guide to Catholic teaching [Catechism of the Catholic Church].
- https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-wants-c ... 25324.html

I wonder how the Magisterium will respond to this given Pope John Paul II's and Pope Benedict XVI's stated positions?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:12 am 
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"Francis said past doctrinal errors should be put aside."

Past doctrinal errors? Is he suggesting that the Church was teaching error?

"The execution of a human being was fundamentally against the teachings of Christ because, by definition, it excluded the possibility of redemption, he argued."

If you ask me, having a date set for execution should concentrate the mind wonderfully, to paraphrase Samuel Johnson, and along with it an opportunity to concentrate on one's prospects in the hereafter.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Quote:
"The execution of a human being was fundamentally against the teachings of Christ because, by definition, it excluded the possibility of redemption, he argued."

One has to assume, in charity, that the Holy Father said nothing of the kind--this would involve so obvious an equivocation on 'redemption' that any 3rd grader would be able to spot it.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:33 pm 
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1HCaAC wrote:
I wonder how the Magisterium will respond to this given Pope John Paul II's and Pope Benedict XVI's stated positions?


Huh? :scratch: I don't even know what that means, the Magisterium is just a word that refers to the teaching authority of the Church, it's not an independent office within the Church that can comment on things.


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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:50 pm 
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It means what would the teaching authority (The Pope and the Bishops) think collectively. As you noted that is what the Magisterium is.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Quote:
Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increased


My first reaction to reading this headline was "...and people in hell want ice water." :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Seems to me the highest standard in opposition to the death penalty is already in force for the Catholic Faith. The Catechism states:

"2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.'" 68

    68 John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56.

Only increase from the above standard my view would be an absolute ban to the death penalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Quote:
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.'" 68

    68 John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56.


The implied error in this statement is thinking that the death penalty is only here to prevent crime or prevent harm. Not so - it servers proper justice. This type of thinking arises when the "dignity of the human person" starts to become an invincible concept. Understandably, it is simply a reaction in part to the mass murders of the 20th century, particularly via Nazism and Communism. It is also influenced by an excessive Personalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:30 pm 
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We should take the human dignity of murder victims into account

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:45 am 
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1HCaAC wrote:
Seems to me the highest standard in opposition to the death penalty is already in force for the Catholic Faith. The Catechism states:

"2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.'" 68

    68 John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56.

Only increase from the above standard my view would be an absolute ban to the death penalty.

He has said things in the past that are I guess "more strongly" opposed to the death penalty. He has said basically he thinks the death penalty is intrinsically evil. Which would be a break from prior teaching, and that quoted. But, this is just more wait and see.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:40 am 
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one has to continually wonder... is all this coming from him... or is he being influenced by his "advisors" with an agenda :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:41 am 
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"The Church firmly rejects death penalty" _
Amoris Laetitia

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:45 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:
one has to continually wonder... is all this coming from him... or is he being influenced by his "advisors" with an agenda :scratch:

“It is not to be excluded that I will enter history as the one who split the Catholic Church.”

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:50 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
"The Church firmly rejects death penalty" _
Amoris Laetitia

Interpreted in light of the tradition and teaching of the Church, that statement means something different than what it appears to mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:58 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:
one has to continually wonder... is all this coming from him... or is he being influenced by his "advisors" with an agenda :scratch:

If he says it, it's from him, even if it did not originate with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Quote:
Pope Francis called Wednesday for categoric opposition to capital punishment

And I reject his position on this matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:24 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
"The Church firmly rejects death penalty" _
Amoris Laetitia

Interpreted in light of the tradition and teaching of the Church, that statement means something different than what it appears to mean.

What does it mean, interpreted in light of the tradition and teaching of the Church?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:54 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
one has to continually wonder... is all this coming from him... or is he being influenced by his "advisors" with an agenda :scratch:


How many hopes have been dashed upon the rock of the idea that ... "If only the King knew, he would fix it. It is his evil advisers who......"?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:07 am 
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http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/comment ... clarified/ :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Pope wants Catholic opposition to death penalty increase
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
"The Church firmly rejects death penalty" _
Amoris Laetitia

Interpreted in light of the tradition and teaching of the Church, that statement means something different than what it appears to mean.

What does it mean, interpreted in light of the tradition and teaching of the Church?

That government, at least in some instances, can administer the death penalty.

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