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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:36 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here's a question, actually two questions in two parts, I'd like to ask anyone who converted to Catholicism from some other Christian religion? Something to think about:

As a Catholic, are you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you are not terrified, why are you not terrified?

If you believed in another religion at any time in your life, before you became a Catholic, during that time in your life were you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you were not terrified, why were you not terrified?


I fear hell for myself, my wife, and my children. Not a day goes by that I don’t beg God’s mercy and fear for my soul. I’m not kidding.

However, as a Baptist I had no fear of hell. Zero. I was “saved” and hell was no longer a worry as Christ was my savior.

The truth of hell hurts - it doesn’t conform to our broken and sin-twisted logic.

I have faith in the Church. She says hell is real and eternal. Scripture says, paraphrasing Christ, that the “worm doesn’t die”.

That’s enough for me.


Seriously, this is what converting to Catholicism has done for you, a state of perpetual fear?! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Pro-Zak wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here's a question, actually two questions in two parts, I'd like to ask anyone who converted to Catholicism from some other Christian religion? Something to think about:

As a Catholic, are you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you are not terrified, why are you not terrified?

If you believed in another religion at any time in your life, before you became a Catholic, during that time in your life were you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you were not terrified, why were you not terrified?


I fear hell for myself, my wife, and my children. Not a day goes by that I don’t beg God’s mercy and fear for my soul. I’m not kidding.

However, as a Baptist I had no fear of hell. Zero. I was “saved” and hell was no longer a worry as Christ was my savior.

The truth of hell hurts - it doesn’t conform to our broken and sin-twisted logic.

I have faith in the Church. She says hell is real and eternal. Scripture says, paraphrasing Christ, that the “worm doesn’t die”.

That’s enough for me.


Seriously, this is what converting to Catholicism has done for you, a state of perpetual fear?! :shock:


Uh huh......and Peeteem is not alone in this. I am in fear for myself and my children and grandchildren. Roman Catholic eschatology (as well as some conservative Orthodoxy) states there is no salvation outside the Church.

I am more concerned for my soul now than when I was a Protestant. Why? Because in Eastern soteriology, it's not about a legal paying off of God by means of doing certain things (making a decision for Christ, so many prayers to get out of Purgatory, scapulars, etc). It's about how much you are like Christ when you die. Anything that is not like Him will meet the burning fire of His love and be painfully consumed and destroyed.

And I know real well just how far from holy I still am. It's about ontology, not legality.

I see the same fear in my wife, a life-long Roman Catholic. I've heard her speak of these things. Some of us take this stuff pretty seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:00 pm 
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I'm not surprised by the fear oh hell. For me, as a Baptist I was terrified of ending up in hell. Praise God, I've zero fear about that anymore. Still, fear of damnation isn't limited to a particular denomination.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Light of the East,

"I am more concerned for my soul now than when I was a Protestant. Why? Because in Eastern soteriology, it's not about a legal paying off of God by means of doing certain things (making a decision for Christ, so many prayers to get out of Purgatory, scapulars, etc). It's about how much you are like Christ when you die. Anything that is not like Him will meet the burning fire of His love and be painfully consumed and destroyed."

I feel the need to give my input on what you stated above....

I have been a Catholic all my life, and though I needed adjustments in my thinking now and then, I am aware that sacramentals (scapulars, medals) are reminders to me to keep one focused and not something "legal" that I do.

Also, the Church does not teach that "there is no salvation outside the Church", although in the past it may have been worded that way. It means that the grace for salvation comes through the Church.
If I have worded that wrong, then someone please correct me. I too believe that I need to be as much like Our Lord Jesus Christ as I can be before I die. The grace is available to be holy - God help me!

Peace,

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:18 pm 
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You are incorrect, Dorothy. That there is no salvation outside the church is official and very ancient dogma. To quote the ever quoted Ott,

    "In the Caput Firmiter, the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declared: "The universal Church of the faithful is one outside of which none is saved." (extra quam nullus monino salvatur). (D. 430). This was the teaching also of the Union Council of Florence (D 714), and of Popes Innocent III (D 423) and Boniface VIII in the Bull "Unam Sanctam" (D 468), Clement VI (D 570 b), Benedict XIV (D 1473), Pius IX (D 1647, 1677), Leo XIII (D1955), Pius XII in the Encyclical "Mystici Corporis" (D 2286, 2288). As against modern religious indifference, Pius IX declared: "By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it, will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord" (D 1647). This last proposition holds out the possibility that people who in point of fact (actu) do not belong to the Church can achieve salvation. Cf. D 1677; 796 (votum baptisimi). -- Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan Books (1974), pp. 312-13

So for Catholics, there can be no debate on whether or not there is salvation outside the church. There may be debate on precisely what that means, but not on this board per the rules.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:25 pm 
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Thanks, "The Jack", for all the historical information.


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:11 pm 
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I think I can safely explain just a little more. The key question is whether full conscious visible membership in the Church is necessary, or if a virtual intention, such that a person would enter if they knew the necessity, is enough to include them sufficiently in the Church to attain salvation. It's the argument over that question which is forbidden by the board rules because it becomes very heated very quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:11 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
Pro-Zak wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here's a question, actually two questions in two parts, I'd like to ask anyone who converted to Catholicism from some other Christian religion? Something to think about:

As a Catholic, are you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you are not terrified, why are you not terrified?

If you believed in another religion at any time in your life, before you became a Catholic, during that time in your life were you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you were not terrified, why were you not terrified?


I fear hell for myself, my wife, and my children. Not a day goes by that I don’t beg God’s mercy and fear for my soul. I’m not kidding.

However, as a Baptist I had no fear of hell. Zero. I was “saved” and hell was no longer a worry as Christ was my savior.

The truth of hell hurts - it doesn’t conform to our broken and sin-twisted logic.

I have faith in the Church. She says hell is real and eternal. Scripture says, paraphrasing Christ, that the “worm doesn’t die”.

That’s enough for me.


Seriously, this is what converting to Catholicism has done for you, a state of perpetual fear?! :shock:


Uh huh......and Peeteem is not alone in this. I am in fear for myself and my children and grandchildren. Roman Catholic eschatology (as well as some conservative Orthodoxy) states there is no salvation outside the Church.

I am more concerned for my soul now than when I was a Protestant. Why? Because in Eastern soteriology, it's not about a legal paying off of God by means of doing certain things (making a decision for Christ, so many prayers to get out of Purgatory, scapulars, etc). It's about how much you are like Christ when you die. Anything that is not like Him will meet the burning fire of His love and be painfully consumed and destroyed.

And I know real well just how far from holy I still am. It's about ontology, not legality.

I see the same fear in my wife, a life-long Roman Catholic. I've heard her speak of these things. Some of us take this stuff pretty seriously.


Having concern for your soul and living in perpetual fear of damnation for you and your family are two entirely different things! I've seen nothing in Church teaching that would lead anyone to become a slave to fear like this, the bible says quite the opposite. Unless you are living in sin w/no repentance.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 am 
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Furthermore, many Protestants do not hold to a mere "legal means of salvation", they understand the need for real transformation of the heart, I would think that would include most that are here.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:59 am 
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Re: fear, I quote Father from the "theJack God is good" thread:

Quote:
God accepts conversion and repentance based on fear, but it is very hard to live a life for very long that's based solely on fear. The Church has understood, from the beginning, that love is a much stronger basis for human action than fear, which is debilitating. For that matter, God understands that better than the Church.

I deal with people often in Confession who have forgotten or never learned God's love for them. I do not threaten them with Hell. I try to provide a crucial missing piece of the picture:

    "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:59 am 
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"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov 9:10a)

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." (Phillippians 2:12)

Douay-Rheims wrote:
"With fear": This is against the false faith, and presumptuous security of modern sectaries.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:23 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov 9:10a)

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." (Phillippians 2:12)

Douay-Rheims wrote:
"With fear": This is against the false faith, and presumptuous security of modern sectaries.


So you are filled w/fear and trembling every day, is that how you work out your salvation?

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:46 am 
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The fear of the Lord is clean, and means something quite different than some people think...

https://www.catholic.com/qa/fear-of-the-lord

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:53 am 
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Fear obviously can't be what Peregrinator seems to be intimating.

    Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us

John is specifically talking about fear v boldness in "the day of judgment." If anyone fears God "in the day of judgment," then they have not been perfected by love. And "perfection" here is very closely tied to wisdom. So the best someone can say is that fear may be the beginning of wisdom, but he is a very immature Christian who remains in that fear. Indeed, I would argue, based on this verse and others, that to remain in a state of fear makes it impossible to progress to love. But since the greatest command is to love God and love one another, to stay in a state of fear leads one directly to sin. Thus any theology (regardless of denomination) that attempts to trap one in fear is necessarily an erroneous and spiritually harmful theology.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Fear obviously can't be what Peregrinator seems to be intimating.

    Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us

John is specifically talking about fear v boldness in "the day of judgment." If anyone fears God "in the day of judgment," then they have not been perfected by love. And "perfection" here is very closely tied to wisdom. So the best someone can say is that fear may be the beginning of wisdom, but he is a very immature Christian who remains in that fear. Indeed, I would argue, based on this verse and others, that to remain in a state of fear makes it impossible to progress to love. But since the greatest command is to love God and love one another, to stay in a state of fear leads one directly to sin. Thus any theology (regardless of denomination) that attempts to trap one in fear is necessarily an erroneous and spiritually harmful theology.


Yeah, but it's a really great way to keep the massa damnata in line and in tune with your agenda.

Look at what the thug emperor Justinian said about it:

"It will render men slothful, and discourage them from keeping the commandments of God."

This from a man who murdered 4,500 Saxons who wouldn't "Accept Jaaaaazzuz". Somehow I missed that part in the Gospel that tells me to kill my enemies.


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:40 pm 
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People have always misused theology for their own political ends. That misuse says absolutely nothing about the truth or falsity of their particular theological claim, including the "massa damnata."

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:44 pm 
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theJack wrote:
People have always misused theology for their own political ends. That misuse says absolutely nothing about the truth or falsity of their particular theological claim, including the "massa damnata."


True, but for us average pew slugs, it makes finding the truth much harder and it can also have severe repercussions in this life (think of Jim Jones and his cult followers)


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
theJack wrote:
People have always misused theology for their own political ends. That misuse says absolutely nothing about the truth or falsity of their particular theological claim, including the "massa damnata."


True, but for us average pew slugs, it makes finding the truth much harder and it can also have severe repercussions in this life (think of Jim Jones and his cult followers)

No it doesn't. "Average pew slugs" know abuse when they see it, or they know it with very minimal instruction. Or even granting your response more force than is appropriate, even if abusing theological truth made it harder to discover real truth, such abuse would continue to remain entirely and completely irrelevant to the truth of your particular theological thorn in the flesh. In short, you know better than to cite people's abuse of the traditional doctrine of damnation to cast question on the doctrine. You know all the better if you are interested in finding the truth you lament abusers make it harder to find.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:51 pm 
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Pro-Zak wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Here's a question, actually two questions in two parts, I'd like to ask anyone who converted to Catholicism from some other Christian religion? Something to think about:

As a Catholic, are you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you are not terrified, why are you not terrified?

If you believed in another religion at any time in your life, before you became a Catholic, during that time in your life were you terrified that you might suffer in hell for all eternity? If you were not terrified, why were you not terrified?


I fear hell for myself, my wife, and my children. Not a day goes by that I don’t beg God’s mercy and fear for my soul. I’m not kidding.

However, as a Baptist I had no fear of hell. Zero. I was “saved” and hell was no longer a worry as Christ was my savior.

The truth of hell hurts - it doesn’t conform to our broken and sin-twisted logic.

I have faith in the Church. She says hell is real and eternal. Scripture says, paraphrasing Christ, that the “worm doesn’t die”.

That’s enough for me.


Seriously, this is what converting to Catholicism has done for you, a state of perpetual fear?! :shock:


Not at all.

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