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 Post subject: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:06 pm 
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Does anyone know if Martin Luther would have taken a vow of celibacy when he became a monk? If so, any idea on what the words of the vow would have been?

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Of course, how could you possibly be a monk without taking a vow of celibacy? Being celibate is practically the definition of the word monk.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Yes, he took one. Yes, he broke it. No, there's no way there was weasel room in the wording for him to get away with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm 
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Okay well I thought so but I wanted to make sure because I have been floating it around in arguments about him leaving the Catholic Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:36 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi [bot] wrote:
Yes, he took one. Yes, he broke it. No, there's no way there was weasel room in the wording for him to get away with it.


I did not realize he broke it. When did he do that?
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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:43 am 
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When he married a former nun.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:27 am 
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Getting married became almost required for Lutheran ministers in the Nordic countries. At least in Denmark-Norway. Apparently, an incoming incumbent (I hope that is still English) often inherited his late predecessor's wife and family because that was really the easiest way of resolving the matter of what to do with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:44 am 
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Quote:
incoming incumbent
A bit of an oxymoron.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:47 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi [bot] wrote:
Quote:
incoming incumbent
A bit of an oxymoron.


Well....it's oxymenglish...

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:01 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi [bot] wrote:
When he married a former nun.


Ah. Just goes to show how much I know about Luther.
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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:46 am 
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CCB,

I don't really see the point of bringing this fact up in apologetics discussions with Protestant. No one who admires Luther is going to think of his breaking his vows as a bad thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:16 pm 
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Just Plain Doom wrote:
CCB,

I don't really see the point of bringing this fact up in apologetics discussions with Protestant. No one who admires Luther is going to think of his breaking his vows as a bad thing.

What, some kind of early form of "lying for Jesus"? Why wouldn't an honest Protestant hope to see a man fulfill even what he considers to be a stupid or bad vow made to God?

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:27 pm 
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Just Plain Doom wrote:
CCB,

I don't really see the point of bringing this fact up in apologetics discussions with Protestant. No one who admires Luther is going to think of his breaking his vows as a bad thing.


I disagree. It casts doubt on his genuineness in reforming Christianity. Especially in light that St. Paul's teachings on celibacy.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:33 pm 
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CCB wrote:
Just Plain Doom wrote:
CCB,

I don't really see the point of bringing this fact up in apologetics discussions with Protestant. No one who admires Luther is going to think of his breaking his vows as a bad thing.


I disagree. It casts doubt on his genuineness in reforming Christianity. Especially in light that St. Paul's teachings on celibacy.


Most Protestants won't see it that way. Most Protestant sects teach (at least on some level) that "denying" priests and monastics the "right" to marry is a sign of the Catholic Church being a false religion. So Martin Luther seeing that "error" and breaking an anti-scriptural vow is a good thing, in their viewpoint.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:36 pm 
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Those wouldn't be people sincerely looking for the truth. Their ignorance is between them and God.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:46 pm 
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CCB wrote:
Those wouldn't be people sincerely looking for the truth. Their ignorance is between them and God.


I'm just sayin'. If you want to reach people and get them to really re-think the Protestant Reformation, its ramifications and their Protestant affiliations there are better places to start then with the relatively unimportant (theologically speaking) issue of Martin Luther and his vow of celibacy.

As for people not "sincerely looking for the truth." I think you should consider that a lifetime of conditioning to believe one thing rather than another is not easily undone. They may not know that there is a truth they should be seeking. Hitting them with something they are likely to find to be a non-issue (at best) or a cause for praise (at worst) is unlikely to be an effective apologetics approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:53 pm 
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Consider it from this viewpoint: In Catholic moral theology, a vow contrary to the law of God is not and cannot be binding. If you consider a vow of celibacy to be immoral, then it's not going to bother you that Luther broke his, and many Protestants consider such vows to be immoral.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:57 pm 
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I understand that. However, they will have difficulty proving a vow of celibacy is immoral considering St. Paul taught it was superior than the married life.

Also, this is why I am not bringing up breaking a vow of obedience. Obviously would could break a vow of obedience to a corrupt organization.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Another view point is that he didn't marry (and thus break his vow of celibacy) until after he formally and materially separated from the Church. Once he left the Church all bets were off, so-to-speak. Why would he continue to honour a vow he made to a Church that he irrevocably broke with? From their point of view there A) wasn't a legitimate vow made since the vow is contrary to their interpretation of Scripture B) he broke with the Church (rightly in their view) so the vow was no longer binding even if it had been legitimate.

As a former Lutheran, I just don't see you getting anywhere or making any inroads with a Protestant along this line of argument when there are much better discussions to be had.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Martin Luther break a vow of celibacy
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi [bot] wrote:
Consider it from this viewpoint: In Catholic moral theology, a vow contrary to the law of God is not and cannot be binding. If you consider a vow of celibacy to be immoral, then it's not going to bother you that Luther broke his, and many Protestants consider such vows to be immoral.


Exactly. They see celibacy as a moral evil, and therefore a promise to commit a moral evil is not binding. To them, it would be a little bit like arguing that it is wrong to not fulfill a promise to commit genocide.


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