Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 15 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: The religious mind - information vs. knowledge.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:13 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
It can be argued that knowledge, beliefs and attitudes are arrived at through a motivated search for information..
I would contend that the main component in this experience/process would be a need for closure.

There was a study conducted in Belgium that shined a light on 5 facets of thought that defined this contruct.
1. Desire for order and structure in the subjects lives
2. a preference for predictable situations
3. a desire to reach closure which is reflected in strength of judgments and choices made
4. the view that ambiguity of situation devoid of closure as aversive
5. the unwillingness to have one beliefs confronted and hence rendered insecure by inconsistent evidence or alternative opinion.

The core of this methodology of closure would essentially be fear. Whether it was a weak or strong fear is irrelevent. One can dogmatically adhere to both atheism and religion....but both are examples of rigidness that precludes reality and logic by insisting that one correct idea or belief MUST prevail......

The study concluded that people who are more religious have a higher need for closure than people who are less religious or devoid of.....because they desire an ordered and predictable environment. This seemed to suggest that religion was an instrument/tool that offered a global worldview and a moral program which reduces the complexity of life and creates a psychologically safe environment (fear).

I would like to discuss how this relates to psychology...the irrational mind...the actual relevance of religion in place of clear reasonable and logical thought within the parameters of our tangible society and social interaction with eachother....Do we NEED religion in a rational sense.?
Out of time - I'll be back.

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:36 am 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
Are you saying that people are religious because, when faced with metaphysical questions that are (as you might be contending) unanswerable, their need for "closure" or certainty invokes in them a credulity that is not in keeping with the standard epistemology that they utilize in day-to-day operations....and are therefore inconsistent?

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:47 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
.....that is definitely a kernel of the cob if you will. I don't think I would term it as gullible but more of exasperation that grows from many things..among them fear, misunderstanding reason, false and improper use/grasp of logic......have you ever heard the expression "necessity is the mother of invention" ??....this excludes other basis such as mental instability/psychoses..brain washing self/ or external....and trauma.


Max Majestic wrote:
Are you saying that people are religious because, when faced with metaphysical questions that are (as you might be contending) unanswerable, their need for "closure" or certainty invokes in them a credulity that is not in keeping with the standard epistemology that they utilize in day-to-day operations....and are therefore inconsistent?

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:00 pm 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
swaglantern wrote:
...... I don't think I would term it as gullible....


Nor would I. I think the phrase "eagerly credulous" accurately describes what you're arguing.

swaglantern wrote:
...but more of exasperation that grows from many things..among them fear, misunderstanding reason, false and improper use/grasp of logic......


That may definitely be the case with some theists. Do you think it could also be the same with some atheists?


swaglantern wrote:
have you ever heard the expression "necessity is the mother of invention" ??....this excludes other basis such as mental instability/psychoses..brain washing self/ or external....and trauma.


So we're discussing only this "eager credulity in the face of unanswerable metaphysical questions" in the absence of the other possibilities you mentioned. I'm glad you set the parameters for the discussion like that....it'll save us a lot of time.

Ok, continue.

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The religious mind - information vs. knowledge.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:10 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:06 pm
Posts: 3020
Location: Boise, Idaho
swaglantern wrote:
It can be argued that knowledge, beliefs and attitudes are arrived at through a motivated search for information..
I would contend that the main component in this experience/process would be a need for closure.


This is an aside, but I have seen it presented that there are two more members to the spectrum you present.

data->information->knowledge->wisdom

28 years ago I worked with some of the early computerized pictures returned from NASA Landsat satellites. This was data, pure empirical numbers. we printed the data on computer paper and colored the numbers with felt pens (no kidding!), then taped the 7' strips of paper together on the wall and made mosaics. Now we could see a picture with patterns in the raw numbers. The next step was to combine external data to this spatial and numerical data and produce information; a green square pattern 1 mile wide was identified as irrigated alfalfa while another square was dry land wheat. Now we were pretty impressed with ourselves! Yet we had yet to confront what would come later in the Geographic Information Systems; to try and put all of it together and do something intellegent; to apply information from many spheres of human activity and natural processes and develop the knowledge of how to develop and later respond to a situation. Katrina has shown that this task is far from simple.

Yet the last stage which is what it is all directed to is wisdom; to what purpose do we apply our knowledge. The philosopher says to trend towards truth; God reveals He is Truth. The empiricist who has divorced his thinking from philosophy or God applies his knowledge in whatever way he pleases. and this historically has produced the most pain and suffering for the rest of humanity.


Quote:
but both are examples of rigidness that precludes reality and logic by insisting that one correct idea or belief MUST prevail......


Reality and logic dictate that the truth of anything is singular and therefore rigidity is the most reasonable and rational response, even when in error.

_________________
"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:31 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:28 pm
Posts: 285
Location: Sydney, la plus prodigieuse cité de l'univers
Max Majestic wrote:
So we're discussing only this "eager credulity in the face of unanswerable metaphysical questions" in the absence of the other possibilities you mentioned.


But doesn't that assume that there are unanswerable metaphysical questions? How do you know there are?

_________________
There are two ways of getting home; and one of them is to stay there. The other is to walk around the whole world till we come back to the same place. -G K Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:10 am 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
GAB wrote:
Max Majestic wrote:
So we're discussing only this "eager credulity in the face of unanswerable metaphysical questions" in the absence of the other possibilities you mentioned.


But doesn't that assume that there are unanswerable metaphysical questions? How do you know there are?



I'm sure there are some, but that wasn't a statement of my opinion. I was reiterating swag's argument to him to be certain I understood it.

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:53 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
Wait.....I thought credulous meant "gullible"......I don't think gullible would be a correct explanation.

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:59 am 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
To me, it means something like "eager to believe something on flimsy evidence". (Although technically, gullible may be a synonym, it's certainly stronger than credulous, imho.)

Anywho, semantics aside, let's proceed with your argument.

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:21 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
busy day.....

Coming from the objectivist camp (as I'm sure you know)….I would argue that my philosophy revolves around humanity and it’s ability to live successfully, justly, and morally upon earth….. period.
Something that I’m working on that I feel has evolved from this mode of thinking is relevance…..objectively speaking relevance is something that I see as foundational. Now I am SOLELY discussing this matter as it pertains to man’s successful interaction with other kind. I don’t see relevance discussed a lot in philosophy because either it “goes without saying” or some may feel that relevance itself is a subjective notion…..maybe.
So this takes us to religion. I would argue that western religion itself no matter what faith - is divisive…..Divisiveness within a societal context is a negative. Why do groups of people view their fellow man as alien?…somewhere in our long dark past we evolved mentally enough to rip ourselves free from the bounds of nature. When this happened we no longer had to relate our existence solely upon the external world…...less and less of our time became consumed by mere survival and we became ever more able to “reflect”…..this is when introspection developed and evolved… This is probably when we finally left our instinctual selves and actually started reasoning at a high level….higher than most anything else…..who knows why….maybe there were many creatures reasoning at a high level and what is left was the best of the best…US…who knows. Now with reason….came EVERYTHING!! ..It’s a beautiful thing…through reason we can create within our minds a labyrinth of irrationality that is completely unmatched by any other creature on our planet…..WE ARE AFRAID of things that we admit in discussion are incomprehensible!…we don’t fear things we should! ON, and On and On….with this ability to reason correctly or incorrectly comes our experience of insecurity and loneliness…..we feel powerless at times…sitting on our couch eating a cookie….we feel powerless. Because of these irrational fears and notions…many human beings are willing to except any compromise……the imagination has crashed the levy and run amuck throughout the primordial mind.!…..it’s really a fight or flight situation…and it came from the blue – over in an instant. The rational self loses and flees…and irrationality, and fear take over. This is called complimentary projection within the field of psychology…….a person defends themselves through a situation that appears to be threatening – by finding an alibi for his or her feelings (religion). This is when REALITY becomes modified…..it is modified based on an individuals inner needs…..it gives substance to the fear….the fear has to have “form, content and logical explanation”….this is the primordial residue of human experience through natural events and fellow experiences which leads us to DENY unpleasant emotions, to rationalize it out, and if possible to transfer them onto people, objects, or entities…such as a God figure. Have you ever heard of cognitive dissonance? This can explain the construct. It contends that some people who have not gotten past a certain level of personal mental evolution, and need to have a congruent image of the world at ALL COSTS….they need to find their own culture..they need to possess their own character traits, their own religion etc…..anywhere and everywhere they go….anyone who would not fall in line with said thinking would obviously have a negative connotation tied to them. This is the socio/political/religious breakdown…the subjective irrational driving our society into a Pete and repeat cluster bomb….have we truly moved forward? …sure we have great technologies……but have we as a people actually moved forward? I would think not… I would contend that it is our steadfast grip with religion, mysticism, fear, that is really at the root of our failure……ideological institutions are not relevant to society as a whole…..rational and objective humans who set themselves straight and correct while coming together within said society is what will set us free. We must overcome ourselves by realizing what the true nature of the self is.

Disclaimer…….I wrote this really fast…. hehehee

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:28 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:45 am
Posts: 4779
Location: East of Cardiff
Religion: yes no and maybe
Hi,
You wrote:

"
Coming from the objectivist camp (as I'm sure you know)….I would argue that my philosophy revolves around humanity and it’s ability to live successfully, justly, and morally upon earth….. period.
"
Is it a sign that you actually finished with many periods? Seriously - such is faith.

John

_________________
https://www.hasmyidentitybeenstolen.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:26 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
come again?

Netcurtains3 wrote:
Hi,
You wrote:

"
Coming from the objectivist camp (as I'm sure you know)….I would argue that my philosophy revolves around humanity and it’s ability to live successfully, justly, and morally upon earth….. period.
"
Is it a sign that you actually finished with many periods? Seriously - such is faith.

John

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:24 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:45 am
Posts: 4779
Location: East of Cardiff
Religion: yes no and maybe
You said "......period."

Such is the weirdness of faith.

JOhn

_________________
https://www.hasmyidentitybeenstolen.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:33 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
Thanx for elaborating?.....I still have no idea what you are talking about :-)

I think you might be putting more meaning into the way I ended the sentence than what I may have intended for the reader... sorry about that.

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:29 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:06 pm
Posts: 3020
Location: Boise, Idaho
swaglantern wrote:
have we truly moved forward? …sure we have great technologies……but have we as a people actually moved forward? I would think not… I would contend that it is our steadfast grip with religion, mysticism, fear, that is really at the root of our failure……ideological institutions are not relevant to society as a whole…..rational and objective humans who set themselves straight and correct while coming together within said society is what will set us free. We must overcome ourselves by realizing what the true nature of the self is.


I am inclined to agree with your observation that we have not moved forward. I would disagree with your interpretation of why, and offer instead that your solution is the problem. The more we embrace your approach (secularization), the worse things get. If we concede no truth outside ourselves then we deserve your solution, which is always rule by brute force and power; ie: tyranny in one form or another.

have a nice day

_________________
"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 15 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: