Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 79 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:19 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:01 am
Posts: 1117
Location: United States
I don't know sources, but in my world religion class, our professor said Jesus was cited in Greek and Roman text and not just Hebrew ones. I also know many atheists or agnostics who do belvie Jesus existed as bieng a fact.

_________________
49 lbs lost and 6.5 left to go

"One single act of love will make us know Jesus better...It will bring us closer to him for all eternity." -----St. Therese of Liseux


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:21 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:27 am
Posts: 318
I've yet to see one example here that can be proved or at least has not been disproved, and ALSO is of the brand of example that would seem to prove Christianity drew from it, in a Graves-ian manner. All the examples that are at least not disproven are ones that are very easily explained and in fact, to any logical mind, not just a Christian, hold no water as proof of Christianity drawing from something else.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:59 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
To begin.........I started this thread....It was a push /pull thread -I'm not foolish enough to get into "proving grounds" within a subject that itself cannot be proven in the sense that we understand.
I know what peer review means - sheesh.... But this is something that I read about long ago, and when I was reading an article about the exodus tale being either a myth, or probably knicked from an older tale -then the different religion stories started to come alive again...and I thought I would start a thread. You seem to dismiss an article written in the 50's....and then dismiss a book written by a PHD written in the present. That's fine......I can probably search out something else...there are probably thousands of books......but when you talk about peer review - It "usually" pertains to something within the scientific community that undergoes scrutiny from the peer group to determine validity..... That isn't what you're after....you're wanting a "cross" review....I'm sure the guy who wrote the "pagan christ" book runs with a circle of phd's that would agree with him.....are christian theologians going to agree?...of course not. I will try to find something later when I have the time that should at least give plausibility.......

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:28 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:40 am
Posts: 8521
Location: Tennessee
Religion: Catholic
I guess I don't understand the point of the exercise then. Might you find some people - or even some group of people - who suggest that the Exodus story is a myth? Sure. I mean, you can find people (and groups of them) who suggest that the Holocaust was a myth. You can find people (and groups of people) who think that earth is populated by aliens for their testing purposes.

I think the point of the thread should be study/explore why religions might have commong points in them. But lead where you want...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:03 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:27 am
Posts: 318
Swag, if you know anything of me, you'd find I'm really not looking for a Christian discussion of the issue. I'm looking for one with convincing evidence. The Mithraic example has been completely debunked as evidence, the Exodus story is social history (if you think it is, even at its root, a myth, and one borrowed from somewhere else, you're nuts), artistic licence does not equal ideological and moral borrowing (so a few artists used a commonly used symbol of divinity - one, that does not make it a Ra cipher; two, it means nothing even if it does).

And so on.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:30 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
To student/carmelite- Don't be an extremist please..... I understand what you are saying - but I would have hoped by now that we are at least dealing within certain parameters. While the pagan link to Christianity may be a bit "controversial" The exodus issue is one that MANY interested parties...thiest and non...have expounded upon.

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:44 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
Here is an interesting piece loosely tied to our topic.

I like this because it provides a more lucid argument regarding christ, christianity...and the almost liquid subjet that "he" is throught the bible.
I don't even think we have direct evidence of christ existing - so it would be worthless to try and give an evidentiary link to a "pagan" predecessor....but when taken as a whole - it becomes apparent that the christ ideology evolved through man...and man is influenced by his surroundings....past and present.

I think that christianity itself almost needs to be examined in absence of the "Bible".... this is where the whole "composite" argument is realized......if you look at the bible from the beginning to end....you can detect the evolution of the religion.

http://www.quodlibet.net/dunbar-universal.shtml

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:52 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:28 pm
Posts: 1275
Location: Tennessee
swaglantern wrote:
I don't even think we have direct evidence of christ existing - so it would be worthless to try and give an evidentiary link to a "pagan" predecessor....


Swag, out of sheer curiosity, what would you consider to be "direct evidence of Christ existing"? Documents written by his followers? Documents written about his followers? His grave? What?

Zoe

_________________
http://takenoutofcontextmusings.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:20 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:27 am
Posts: 318
Swag, how, pray tell, am I being an extremist? My view on the Exodus issue? Archaelogical and anthropological evidence, as well as the Jewish and Egyptian written histories, tell us the story of the Exodus from Egypt of the Jews.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:14 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
Give me one so I can check it out.....

MoreistCarmelite wrote:
Swag, how, pray tell, am I being an extremist? My view on the Exodus issue? Archaelogical and anthropological evidence, as well as the Jewish and Egyptian written histories, tell us the story of the Exodus from Egypt of the Jews.

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:15 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:40 am
Posts: 8521
Location: Tennessee
Religion: Catholic
swaglantern wrote:
Here is an interesting piece loosely tied to our topic.

I like this because it provides a more lucid argument regarding christ, christianity...and the almost liquid subjet that "he" is throught the bible.
I don't even think we have direct evidence of christ existing - so it would be worthless to try and give an evidentiary link to a "pagan" predecessor....but when taken as a whole - it becomes apparent that the christ ideology evolved through man...and man is influenced by his surroundings....past and present.

I think that christianity itself almost needs to be examined in absence of the "Bible".... this is where the whole "composite" argument is realized......if you look at the bible from the beginning to end....you can detect the evolution of the religion.

http://www.quodlibet.net/dunbar-universal.shtml


Swag, I'd like to know what you consider 'extremist' also. You can throw out the Bible to examine Christianity (Catholicism) for all I care. The Church doesn't and never has limited God's revelation to the Bible. Look at the ECF's if you desire. Trying to examine Christianity by sources that oppose or don't discuss Christianity is about the same as studying Mathematics using only psychiatry texts. Please continue to keep in mind that the Church has always considered the Bible to be that part of God's revelation that God wanted written down. Christianity is not limited to the Bible.

And as for seeing the 'evolution' of Christianity in the Bible, wouldn't you expect that from any source about a subject? If I open up the differential equations book I have sitting on my shelf, I expect to see the 'evolution' of solving differential equations.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:23 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
It would have to be something quite obvious.....there would have to be some clear example of his existence that permeated many layers of tangible observed congruity......it would be nice if the documentation were non contradictory in the sense that some group of people actually knew him. As far as I know there are only two accounts of his name mentioned in any historical written documents, pamphlets, stories, accounts, diaries or whatever else we use to come to some verification of existence of acncient figures - OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE or biblical text.....and theists and non theists don't know what to make of it....... we are talking sentences here....

SalomeKaia wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
I don't even think we have direct evidence of christ existing - so it would be worthless to try and give an evidentiary link to a "pagan" predecessor....


Swag, out of sheer curiosity, what would you consider to be "direct evidence of Christ existing"? Documents written by his followers? Documents written about his followers? His grave? What?

Zoe

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:03 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:27 am
Posts: 318
Read your friendly local history of the Hebrew race, or examine the Sinai archaelogical finds of the 19th and 20th Centuries.

In response, I ask, can you give me a credible argument for the Exodus "myth"? If you already have, my apologies, I must somehow have missed it.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:58 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:28 pm
Posts: 1275
Location: Tennessee
swaglantern wrote:
it would be nice if the documentation were non contradictory in the sense that some group of people actually knew him


You mean like the Apostles? Why do you reject Biblical accounts?

Christ is mentioned in the writings of Tactitus ("Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . "; Tacitus, Annals 15.44).

Pliny the Younger ("They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96)

Josephus, etc.

Again I ask: what are your sources? Where are you getting your info from (esp. "and theists and non theists don't know what to make of it")

Don't you think that the very fact that 2,000 + years after Jesus' death, the billions of His followers are not proof enough of His existance? Do you really think that so many people in so many places for so many centuries could have been so devoted to a myth?

Zoe

_________________
http://takenoutofcontextmusings.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:56 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
You seem to be taking the evangelical christian Josh McDowell argument - below is a fairly good rebuttal (by a phd if that makes you feel any better)
There are many more if you want to go looking-

Lots of people believing in something doesn't make it true.....this just gets back to my theory of the duality of the human mind...we have people who "cross over"...no longer able to differentiate between subjective emotional reasoning and raw objective reasoning.....according to your logic then EVERY religious figure is true....because LOTS of people believe in it....ghosts are real, aliens, bigfoot...etc....this is just BAD logic.



http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... esus.shtml

SalomeKaia wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
it would be nice if the documentation were non contradictory in the sense that some group of people actually knew him


You mean like the Apostles? Why do you reject Biblical accounts?

Christ is mentioned in the writings of Tactitus ("Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . "; Tacitus, Annals 15.44).

Pliny the Younger ("They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96)

Josephus, etc.

Again I ask: what are your sources? Where are you getting your info from (esp. "and theists and non theists don't know what to make of it")

Don't you think that the very fact that 2,000 + years after Jesus' death, the billions of His followers are not proof enough of His existance? Do you really think that so many people in so many places for so many centuries could have been so devoted to a myth?

Zoe

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:54 am 
Offline
Suspended at request of user
Suspended at request of user
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:32 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: Maryland
Religion: RC
swaglantern wrote:
Lots of people believing in something doesn't make it true.....this just gets back to my theory of the duality of the human mind...we have people who "cross over"...no longer able to differentiate between subjective emotional reasoning and raw objective reasoning.....according to your logic then EVERY religious figure is true....because LOTS of people believe in it....ghosts are real, aliens, bigfoot...etc....this is just BAD logic.


Do you really think that if Jesus did not exist so many of His followers would have allowed themselves to be brutually martyred? If they were not transformed by Him, wouldn't they have just denied Him when questioned and went on their merry way when faced with the threat of death? I don't know anyone who went to their death happily for a ghost, an alien or bigfoot.

Was it a case of mass psychosis Swag?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:10 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
Well of course.....are you serious? Do you know anything about world religions past and present.......???? Do you think the mujahadeen worship YOUR God????????? -- The list of groups is fairly extensive throughout history and even the present day - regarding people who are either dying or sacrificing themselves for their God and religion....cmon man.
These poeple didn't flippin know jesus.....I think of all the 4 accounts within the NT....MAYBE John mentions being an eyewitness...maybe...none of the others do, and some sepcifically state that it is an "account".......uh huh.......Is there anyone outside of the "faithfully washed"....that actually even thought they knew jesus? Do we have any accounts of this? Tacitus?....tacitus wrote about a group of people worshipping their God......this is your evidence?

There is a difference between knowing and believing......Jesus may very well have existed - but the resources at our disposal for actuating this are just not what would suffice as reliable, and verifiable type of evidence.

David Hopkins wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
Lots of people believing in something doesn't make it true.....this just gets back to my theory of the duality of the human mind...we have people who "cross over"...no longer able to differentiate between subjective emotional reasoning and raw objective reasoning.....according to your logic then EVERY religious figure is true....because LOTS of people believe in it....ghosts are real, aliens, bigfoot...etc....this is just BAD logic.


Do you really think that if Jesus did not exist so many of His followers would have allowed themselves to be brutually martyred? If they were not transformed by Him, wouldn't they have just denied Him when questioned and went on their merry way when faced with the threat of death? I don't know anyone who went to their death happily for a ghost, an alien or bigfoot.

Was it a case of mass psychosis Swag?

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:15 am 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
There is also no historical evidence for Haji. Haji was an Indian peasant farmer who was killed by a run-away fruit cart in 239 B.C.

Historically speaking, Jesus Christ was only slightly more important in the grand scheme of things than Haji was. If was only after Christ's death that His relative importance became known.

....unless you think it a simple itinerant Jewish preacher was intriguing enough to be noticed by the Roman Empire or their historians???

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:04 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:45 am
Posts: 4779
Location: East of Cardiff
Religion: yes no and maybe
Ignore christianity totally and just look at other religions.

If you can find ONE religion that has not been influenced by other religions then you can validly claim that Christianity might have this attribute too.

If you can find NO religions that have not been influenced by other religions then you will have to say as an HONEST HISTORIAN that Christianity has in all probability been influenced by other religions.

The question is, IMHO, not if, but rather what specifically and does it matter?

I see nothing wrong in seeing some attributes of Dionysus or Judasism of Mythrus or Buddhism or Athiesm or Islam in Christianity - if these attributes are Christian.

It might be that Jesus was just a personification of the Jewish God in the destroyed temple and the cruficixion was also just a personification of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans. However, it could also be true that the jewish God in the temple might simply be the de-personification of an idealised jewish warrior from about 1000BC. Nothing in history is certain.

Most historians do claim that a jesus person existed and that Peter , James and John existed. Did st paul exist? I think that he did too. Did these jewish people have ideas from more then one source? probably.


John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:30 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
You still make that subjective "leap" in regards to the credibilty....you should read this article..it's very good.

http://www.courses.drew.edu/sp2000/BIBS ... citus.html

Max Majestic wrote:
There is also no historical evidence for Haji. Haji was an Indian peasant farmer who was killed by a run-away fruit cart in 239 B.C.

Historically speaking, Jesus Christ was only slightly more important in the grand scheme of things than Haji was. If was only after Christ's death that His relative importance became known.

....unless you think it a simple itinerant Jewish preacher was intriguing enough to be noticed by the Roman Empire or their historians???

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 79 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: