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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:03 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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I think the similarities are a boost to religion. But as Max points out, it's quitting tiime for today...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:16 pm 
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swag,

do you ever comment, even let alone read what I write? Seems every dang topic you start, I comment, you never reply to me. I take the time to reply to you, why don''t you take the time to reply to me?

I have taken world religoin last semester and am taking magic, myth, and folklore starting next week.

With serpents: it seems many cutlures have a seprent as their big time evil enemy. Just as the Bible describes Stan as that ancient seprent form the garden with Adam and Eve. I think there may be something called the rianbow seprent which is evil too.

Now, please reply to my posts for once. I'm not bein greedy or selfish, but insulted :(

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:17 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
There are many tales of resurrections predating xtianity.....crucifixions....


Ok. Please cite your sources. And I mean, reputable, peer-reviewed academic sources.

swanglantern wrote:
there are angels in creek statues and art......etc....etc..etc...Egytpians have a creation tale that features a figure called "Atum" that deals with serpents etc.....strangely familiar.


Sources, please?

swanglantern wrote:
So MANY images and pieces of art that depict woman holding a child - ala the Mary and jesus..


What? You mean that other cultures recognized the concept of maternity? Wow!

swanglantern wrote:
Concepts of rebirth, baptisim have all been seen elsewhere.


Considering that Baptism is a Christian term for a Christian concept, I doubt it. Note tha Baptism is not the same as ritual washing.

Zoe

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:49 am 
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My apologies - I meant no insult.
I would postulate that mankind viewed snakes as quite mysterious and misunderstood when our mind was young and savage.......There aren't too many "landlocked" animals if any that move about without some sort of appendage.......as with anything that's misunderstood - humans have a tendency to attach negative thoughts.....psychologically it's a way to justify fears etc.... sidestep inadequacy.

MySavingGrace wrote:
swag,

do you ever comment, even let alone read what I write? Seems every dang topic you start, I comment, you never reply to me. I take the time to reply to you, why don''t you take the time to reply to me?

I have taken world religoin last semester and am taking magic, myth, and folklore starting next week.

With serpents: it seems many cutlures have a seprent as their big time evil enemy. Just as the Bible describes Stan as that ancient seprent form the garden with Adam and Eve. I think there may be something called the rianbow seprent which is evil too.

Now, please reply to my posts for once. I'm not bein greedy or selfish, but insulted :(

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:08 am 
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Quote:
Ok. Please cite your sources. And I mean, reputable, peer-reviewed academic sources.


Sources? History is the source....I don't have time to go through and list every source....please feel free to research yourself.
Over 20 gods that apparently descended from heaven, took the form of men and furnished proof of their divinity through miracles and marvelous works.....many were have said to be born from virgins...MIthra was said to be born of rock...or was rock (where have we heard that before?)
Chrishna, Indra, Salivhana, Baal, Jao..etc...etc...


Quote:
Sources, please?


There is a greek statue of aphrodite- probably 200-100 bc that has her standing next to Pan.....there is an ANGEL hovering over her shoulder plain as day - It looks EXACTLY like the xtian rendition of angels etc...Pan has horns and goats feet (sound familiar?) Look at the statue for yourself.


Quote:
What? You mean that other cultures recognized the concept of maternity? Wow!


It's a little deeper than that....there is a mosaic of the baby Dionysus (greek mythology) that has him sitting in his mothers lap......there is a flipping halo around his head!......it is so familiar looking....

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:00 am 
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swaglantern wrote:
Sources? History is the source....I don't have time to go through and list every source....please feel free to research yourself.
Over 20 gods that apparently descended from heaven, took the form of men and furnished proof of their divinity through miracles and marvelous works.....many were have said to be born from virgins...MIthra was said to be born of rock...or was rock (where have we heard that before?)
Chrishna, Indra, Salivhana, Baal, Jao..etc...etc...


Actually, it's not that you don't have time, it's that authentic, original references to these so called similarities do not exist in academic literature.

Please read all the articles we suggested and then we can talk.


swaglantern wrote:
It's a little deeper than that....there is a mosaic of the baby Dionysus (greek mythology) that has him sitting in his mothers lap......there is a flipping halo around his head!......it is so familiar looking....


Oh, please! What's so strange about a baby sitting in his mother's lap? And the halo doesn't mean anything - it's a common artistic representation of divinity. Many cultures had goddesses w/babies, but so what?

Zoe

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:04 pm 
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That's just a bold face lie...... even it were true - using that same logic you could totally discredit jesus.....when in history was a jesus ever mentioned?? Josephus?? Yea - the JEW who called jesus the messiah huh?.....that has undergone some sever scrutiny of authenticity. Maybe one other place....maybe......that's it.

I'm fairly certain that egytpian creation God Atum, and osirus, and hurus etc..etc... are written down in heiroglyphic texts on walls and tombs....I don't need an apologist to tell me they are "forgeries!" or lies......paaaalllllleeeeaaaassseeee. Dionysus.....that myth NEVER existed huh...or actually it ripped off christianity....yea uh huh.

You ever read the bible from front to back? You don't notice a strange change in concept from the old testament to the new testament.....when and where in the OT was hell mentioned first?......There IS a God of the underworld titled Hel though...Hmmmmmm -


SalomeKaia wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
Sources? History is the source....I don't have time to go through and list every source....please feel free to research yourself.
Over 20 gods that apparently descended from heaven, took the form of men and furnished proof of their divinity through miracles and marvelous works.....many were have said to be born from virgins...MIthra was said to be born of rock...or was rock (where have we heard that before?)
Chrishna, Indra, Salivhana, Baal, Jao..etc...etc...


Actually, it's not that you don't have time, it's that authentic, original references to these so called similarities do not exist in academic literature.

Please read all the articles we suggested and then we can talk.


swaglantern wrote:
It's a little deeper than that....there is a mosaic of the baby Dionysus (greek mythology) that has him sitting in his mothers lap......there is a flipping halo around his head!......it is so familiar looking....


Oh, please! What's so strange about a baby sitting in his mother's lap? And the halo doesn't mean anything - it's a common artistic representation of divinity. Many cultures had goddesses w/babies, but so what?

Zoe

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Nobody is arguing that Atum or Dionysus were not worshipped on antiquity. We're saying that the claim that Christian rituals and beliefs are based on pagan cults is inaccurate.

:brick:

Zoe


edited by mod

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:35 pm 
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Maybe....maybe not. :roll: ......once again I go back to the principle of "likeliness".......It's amazing the things that can be explained away......too many coincidences that reoccur over and over again in that area of the world.

SalomeKaia wrote:
Nobody is arguing that Atum or Dionysus were not worshipped on antiquity. We're saying that the claim that Christian rituals and beliefs are based on pagan cults is inaccurate.

:brick:

Zoe


edited by mod

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:48 pm 
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Swag, you might consider posting what some scholars have to say on the issue. Salome asked for peer-reviewed academic sources. It's a reasonable request.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Just a quick search yielded millions of pages.....So I listed a book....a paper that appears to be written by the king!, and a site that has lots of scholarly resources........arguments and ideas like these do not emerge from thin air.


http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publ ... eligio.pdf

a really funny sight
http://www.entheology.org/POCM/index.htm

Books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 4?v=glance


Max Majestic wrote:
Swag, you might consider posting what some scholars have to say on the issue. Salome asked for peer-reviewed academic sources. It's a reasonable request.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:56 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:



I've read this book. It's not written by scholars, but by independent researchers......so, it's not gone through the peer-review process. Nonetheless, I found it well-written.

But at least you didn't cite The Christ Conspiracy by Achyra S. (who not only is NOT a scholar, but only has a B.A. in Western Civ).

I am a bibliophile, have a vast home library and take excellent care of my collection. I use The Christ Conspiracy as a coaster.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:10 pm 
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Sigh.

swaglantern wrote:
Just a quick search yielded millions of pages.....So I listed a book....a paper that appears to be written by the king!, and a site that has lots of scholarly resources........arguments and ideas like these do not emerge from thin air.


http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publ ... eligio.pdf


This is article is over 50 years old. The bibliography sites 2 works by Franz Cumont and no works published after 1946. It's irrelevant.

Why? This is why:

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html wrote:
In 1975, Mithraic studies scholar John Hinnells lamented "the practical difficulty of any one scholar mastering all the necessary fields" -- linguistics, anthropology, history (Indian, Iranian, and Roman!), archaeology, iconography, sociology -- in order to get a grip on Mithraic studies...Thus it is not surprising that for the longest time, from the end of the 19th century until the middle of the 20th, there was only one person in the world who could be regarded as any sort of authority on Mithraism -- and that was Franz Cumont.

Cumont worked with the thesis that Mithraic belief was of a continuous, fairly invariable tapestry from it's earliest history up into the Roman period... By the time of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies in the early 70s, the lack of evidence of an Iranian/Roman continuity led Mithraic scholars to suspect that Roman Mithraism was "a new creation using old Iranian names and details for an exotic coloring to give a suitably esoteric appearance to a mystery cult" [MS, xiii] -- and that Roman Mithraism was Mithraism in name only, merely a new system that used the name of a known ancient Eastern deity to attract urbane Romans who found the east and all of its accoutrements an enticing mystery. ...


If you had read the articles we asked you to read, you would have known that modern scholars no longer believe that what late 19th-century and early 20th century writers wrote is true. It's obvious that you haven't even attempted to learn about the current state of Mirthaic studies.


swaglantern wrote:


I couldn't see any reputable, peer-reviewed academic sources here.

swaglantern wrote:


Timothy Freke? :laughhard . That's a good one.

Why not cite this: http://www.truthbeknown.com/

Sorry, swag. Try again.

Zoe[/quote]

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:12 pm 
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SalomeKaia wrote:

Why not cite this: http://www.truthbeknown.com/



See my post above. :D

Acharya S. couldn't research her way out of a rat maze.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:34 pm 
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wow - I thought I was a condescending edited at times......you have me beaten easily :-)......Look pal....you asked me to find "peer reviewed" articles (interesting request) I chose to ignore the shallowness of it in light of the subject at hand.... ...so I just picked 3 out of thousands mainly because I thought they were interesting.....You knock down an article written in the 50's by using something from the 70's.......what do you mean by peer review anyway bozo? I'm not flipping claiming this is some scientific fact.....that would be like asking you to scientifically prove that Jesus existed.... You want me to find something written by a guy who has multiple phd's in archaeology, linguistics, anthropology, and theology...and then have a guy with a background in just theology debunk it? ....sheesh Tektonics?...it's a theological page......so flipping what? - yea they are christians - neat! I guess I need to find CHRISTIANS who believe their religion was pagan formed? - edited by mod

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:38 pm 
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Swag, the peer review process is simple. Professors in the field publish their findings and it is subject to the critique of others in the same field. It's the scholarly equivalent to scientists leaving their experiments open to replication by others. Essentially, peer-reviewed works establish the current state of affairs in a specific discipline.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:39 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Look pal....



BTW, Salome is a she.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:46 pm 
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also - it's just not all about Mithraism.....and I never claimed it was..

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:50 pm 
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Max Majestic wrote:
BTW, Salome is a she.


Thanks, Max.

Zoe

p.s. crumble, crumble...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:03 pm 
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Swag,

Relax. Take a deep breath. Our understanding of the world changes with time. Scholars during the 1970s, 1950s or 1930s may have accepted X as being true, but that doesn't mean that it still holds up to scrutiny in 2005. Archeology, linguistics, etc., etc. are advancing.

Now, if you still want to argue your point, please don't go seraching the web for random sources. Tell us exactly where you read the information that led you to believe what you now believe, and we can go from there.

Zoe

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