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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:15 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Well....that makes sense.


Of course it does. The ecumenically-minded Catechism quote you posted describes a portion of the beliefs of Islam. It says: But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems:.....and of course, the plan of salvation includes them (and you, for that matter. All people are part of the plan of salvation.) It also says that we have high-regard for the good things in their religion (which it then lists) and continues to describe some of their beliefs.

If you think that refutes me, then you're using fuzzy logic, my friend. To refute me, provide something that says "Islam does not (also) preach violence."

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:51 pm 
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Uhmmm - unbelievable....
it specifically states that the church has a high regard for muslims.....period.
A high regard for muslims. Who cares which part of the faith they highlight....THE CHURCH SPECIFICALLY STATED IN A CLEAR ANd CONCISE SENTENCE - THE CHURCH HAS A HIGH REGARD FOR MUSLIMS.

Max.....am I to believe - based on your posts that you have a high regard for muslims?

You know...you can twist, manipulate, cherry pick the bible.....you can argue anything WITH THE WORST ATTEMPTS AT REASONING I have ever witnessed....you can argue that the Quran supports violence (which is why it's bad)
But when slammed upside the head with clear instances of the bible doing the same thing - you just magically weave a little decietful web of word play..and claim things like "oh well God was only talking to a certain group of people etc..etc..".......it's sad...and it's seriously scary actually...

It just validates my observance of the religious mind COMPLETELY.....

So what you are telling me is that the Catholic Church holds in high regard....a religious group that YOU claim to be murderous and violent....completely supported by the quran etc.... You need to get into the nuts and bolts of how you think in relation to objective contrasting and analysis......It's so, so ridiculous that you can read that encyclical and not see the glaring contradiction in the way you feel about muslims and what the church wrote. If I thought a group of people were murdereous etc....how could I EVER EVER EVER...write in an important, official church document that I held them in high regard...HOW!!!?......PLease MAX, please tell me that you at LEAST realize your views are off their pace....otherwise this is completely useless.....seriously......If you can't then I feel sorry for you.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:05 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Uhmmm - unbelievable....
it specifically states that the church has a high regard for muslims.....period.
A high regard for muslims. Who cares which part of the faith they highlight....THE CHURCH SPECIFICALLY STATED IN A CLEAR ANd CONCISE SENTENCE - THE CHURCH HAS A HIGH REGARD FOR MUSLIMS.

Max.....am I to believe - based on your posts that you have a high regard for muslims?


Swag, I think you need to take a step back and figure out what on earth you are even trying to argue - for you aren't really getting anywhere. Does the Church have a high regard for Muslims? Yes - the Catechism you quoted shows this. It also tells you why it does. No one here is denying that. So what, again, is you argument?

Quote:
You know...you can twist, manipulate, cherry pick the bible.....you can argue anything WITH THE WORST ATTEMPTS AT REASONING I have ever witnessed....you can argue that the Quran supports violence (which is why it's bad)
But when slammed upside the head with clear instances of the bible doing the same thing - you just magically weave a little decietful web of word play..and claim things like "oh well God was only talking to a certain group of people etc..etc..".......it's sad...and it's seriously scary actually...

It just validates my observance of the religious mind COMPLETELY.....


THis diatribe is about what I'd expect from you at this point, swag. You have decided not to use your mind to engage here - just to throw misguided (and outright false) statements around as if they, of themselves, give you some kind of authority. Surely you don't think they do. I can't imagine a reasonably intelligent 4th grader feeling they would either.

Part of your problem here is that you utterly fail to understand Christianity - and certainly Catholicism. Your critiques and questions are so wide of the mark as to not even be in the same direction. Seriously, take a step back and look at what you are arguing. In fact, go back and read this entire thread as if you were an outsider. it will all become apparent and pretty clear.

Quote:
So what you are telling me is that the Catholic Church holds in high regard....a religious group that YOU claim to be murderous and violent....completely supported by the quran etc.... You need to get into the nuts and bolts of how you think in relation to objective contrasting and analysis......It's so, so ridiculous that you can read that encyclical and not see the glaring contradiction in the way you feel about muslims and what the church wrote. If I thought a group of people were murdereous etc....how could I EVER EVER EVER...write in an important, official church document that I held them in high regard...HOW!!!?......PLease MAX, please tell me that you at LEAST realize your views are off their pace....otherwise this is completely useless.....seriously......If you can't then I feel sorry for you.


Once again, even though it is spelled out clearly for you in the Catechism quote you saw above, you fail to see why the Church has a high regard for Muslims (that being the faith - not what you see as someone you are calling a Muslim or identifying himself as a Muslim). It does not condone the actions of Muslims in general (again, it speaks of the faith, not the individual). So it seems pretty clear and evident, doesn't it?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:10 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Uhmmm - unbelievable....
it specifically states that the church has a high regard for muslims.....period.
A high regard for muslims. Who cares which part of the faith they highlight....THE CHURCH SPECIFICALLY STATED IN A CLEAR ANd CONCISE SENTENCE - THE CHURCH HAS A HIGH REGARD FOR MUSLIMS.

Max.....am I to believe - based on your posts that you have a high regard for muslims?


I respect the good things in their religion (and in all other religions) such as charity, piety and respect for God.

swaglantern wrote:
You know...you can twist, manipulate, cherry pick the bible.....you can argue anything WITH THE WORST ATTEMPTS AT REASONING I have ever witnessed....



You saying it doesn't make it so. If you disagree, make an argument. Your constant tirades make you sound like a teenager....you can do better than that.


swaglantern wrote:
you can argue that the Quran supports violence (which is why it's bad)
But when slammed upside the head with clear instances of the bible doing the same thing - you just magically weave a little decietful web of word play..and claim things like "oh well God was only talking to a certain group of people etc..etc..".......it's sad...and it's seriously scary actually...


I argued why I thought they were different. If you disagree, then make an argument.


swaglantern wrote:
It just validates my observance of the religious mind COMPLETELY.....


Irrelevent.


swaglantern wrote:
So what you are telling me is that the Catholic Church holds in high regard....a religious group that YOU claim to be murderous and violent....completely supported by the quran etc.... You need to get into the nuts and bolts of how you think in relation to objective contrasting and analysis......It's so, so ridiculous that you can read that encyclical and not see the glaring contradiction in the way you feel about muslims and what the church wrote. If I thought a group of people were murdereous etc....how could I EVER EVER EVER...write in an important, official church document that I held them in high regard...HOW!!!?......



1) The Catechism is not an encylical.
2) The Koran does support violence, as the verses I posted prove.
3) Islam has some good points.
4) The RCC lauds the good points in Islam.
5) The RCC also teaches that every man is a sinner.....with grave and deep imprefections. Yet every man is also loved and welcomed. Are you saying that the Church ought to reject out-of-hand all Muslims because a portion of their teachings promote violence? Wouldn't THAT be inconsistent with the sinner/sin message?



swaglantern wrote:
PLease MAX, please tell me that you at LEAST realize your views are off their pace....otherwise this is completely useless.....seriously......If you can't then I feel sorry for you.



Actually, I am quite well-informed on this issue. It seems strange to you because you appear to have been fed caricatures of Christianity and straw-man arguments.

Emotionally-laden language, slightly-veiled condescention and emphatic appeals are not proper method of debate. Read. Study. Learn. Then make an argument for a position.

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 Post subject: Empirical investigation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:33 pm 
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Any scientific empirical investigation will have parameters or assumptions before the investigation is launched. It is controlled and specific.

However, "empirical" also means simply drawing conclusions from practical experience or from the senses.

At the very least, I have observed the effect of spirituality in my life and in other people's lives and it has been positive. This largely affects my "choice" of faith in God.

There are many scientists who believe in God simply because the universe is so complex, wonderful and strange they cannot bring themselves to believe it arose through random chance.

Such conclusions are highly subjective but are based in "practical experience." I would call the choice a "leap of faith." There is not really much that is rational about it. It doesn't really fit the mold of being investigated scientifically.

On the other hand, I believe that once the possibility of faith is entertained with an open heart, the gift of reason strengthens, deepens and illuminates one's faith.

And I agree with Max's reasons for choosing Catholicism over other religions (my own "faith journey" is another story).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:37 pm 
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I understand christianity completely.......you two don't understand reality. You don't understand the english language. You convolute simple ideas...twisting them around to defend your prideful and incorrect positions in the face of a clear and simple sentence.

You manipulate your own church...use it like a shovel to build piles upon piles of nonsense to explain away your inadequacy.....and then when I go in and find a simple example that contradicts the very launchpad of your idea....you trash the very shovel and substitute it with a garden hose so you can try and water down your position. ( I went and read back through the posts).....I didn't start the flipping argument regarding islam and "bombing civilians" ...MR STUDENT....so you get no respect ....you're either mistaken or you can't read. It takes more than one to tango - so playing the idiot card in regards to ME arguing in circles is par for the course for you....shove off champ...your just an interloper at this point....and quite lame.

Wasn't it a Catholic who coined the term "invincible ignorance".......that's perfect.

Max....sorry about you kid....you'll get it right one day......I can't add any more to this thread...My point is strong and correct.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

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Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:43 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
......I can't add any more to this thread....



Shame. We didn't even get past why Islam is incorrect.

Allow me to give a general answer to the thought initiating this thread:

The PM argument posits a being with several predications. Those coincide with the concept of a Christian God. Additionally, there are rational reasons for rejecting other religions as either: 1) inconsistent with the qualities logically necessary for a PM or 2) internally inconsistent.

I have studied for years on this issue, both academically and in my personal spiritual development. As always, I'd be happy to answer any questions that may arise for you.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:49 pm 
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Fine... drop the other

Map out every single point or issue that you can give me on how islam is incorrect ....and I'll compare and contrast that to christianity.

Max Majestic wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
......I can't add any more to this thread....



Shame. We didn't even get past why Islam is incorrect.

Allow me to give a general answer to the thought initiating this thread:

The PM argument posits a being with several predications. Those coincide with the concept of a Christian God. Additionally, there are rational reasons for rejecting other religions as either: 1) inconsistent with the qualities logically necessary for a PM or 2) internally inconsistent.

I have studied for years on this issue, both academically and in my personal spiritual development. As always, I'd be happy to answer any questions that may arise for you.

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:51 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Fine... drop the other

Map out every single point or issue that you can give me on how islam is incorrect ....and I'll compare and contrast that to christianity.



I'm willing...but are you going to change tone?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:05 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
I understand christianity completely.......you two don't understand reality. You don't understand the english language. You convolute simple ideas...twisting them around to defend your prideful and incorrect positions in the face of a clear and simple sentence.

You manipulate your own church...use it like a shovel to build piles upon piles of nonsense to explain away your inadequacy.....and then when I go in and find a simple example that contradicts the very launchpad of your idea....you trash the very shovel and substitute it with a garden hose so you can try and water down your position. ( I went and read back through the posts).....I didn't start the flipping argument regarding islam and "bombing civilians" ...MR STUDENT....so you get no respect ....you're either mistaken or you can't read. It takes more than one to tango - so playing the idiot card in regards to ME arguing in circles is par for the course for you....shove off champ...your just an interloper at this point....and quite lame.

Wasn't it a Catholic who coined the term "invincible ignorance".......that's perfect.

Max....sorry about you kid....you'll get it right one day......I can't add any more to this thread...My point is strong and correct.


:roll:

You know, swag, in reading this thread again, you still haven't said anything. You still haven't defended any position. You have attempted to sidestep all the issues by attempting to ridicule, etc., but that hasn't had much of an effect. Perhaps if you'd just discuss something, the conundrums you continue to find yourself in would evaporate? What's the point of posting here if you are not looking for dialog or information?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:44 am 
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That's an opinion.


Student wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
I understand christianity completely.......you two don't understand reality. You don't understand the english language. You convolute simple ideas...twisting them around to defend your prideful and incorrect positions in the face of a clear and simple sentence.

You manipulate your own church...use it like a shovel to build piles upon piles of nonsense to explain away your inadequacy.....and then when I go in and find a simple example that contradicts the very launchpad of your idea....you trash the very shovel and substitute it with a garden hose so you can try and water down your position. ( I went and read back through the posts).....I didn't start the flipping argument regarding islam and "bombing civilians" ...MR STUDENT....so you get no respect ....you're either mistaken or you can't read. It takes more than one to tango - so playing the idiot card in regards to ME arguing in circles is par for the course for you....shove off champ...your just an interloper at this point....and quite lame.

Wasn't it a Catholic who coined the term "invincible ignorance".......that's perfect.

Max....sorry about you kid....you'll get it right one day......I can't add any more to this thread...My point is strong and correct.


:roll:

You know, swag, in reading this thread again, you still haven't said anything. You still haven't defended any position. You have attempted to sidestep all the issues by attempting to ridicule, etc., but that hasn't had much of an effect. Perhaps if you'd just discuss something, the conundrums you continue to find yourself in would evaporate? What's the point of posting here if you are not looking for dialog or information?

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:47 am 
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Never mistake passion for anger....:-)......but sure - I'll lighten up.

I think it may be better to contrast Christianity with all religions.........

we really need to find concrete benefits.

Max Majestic wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
Fine... drop the other

Map out every single point or issue that you can give me on how islam is incorrect ....and I'll compare and contrast that to christianity.



I'm willing...but are you going to change tone?

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:09 am 
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Swag, I'm not really sure that you know who we are. People that are raised in a specific faith (any faith, for that matter) tend to not be as informed about it as those people who convert later in life. Obviously, there's a difference between practicing a religion and studying a religion. You can be a practicioner of a certain religion for your whole life and still not understand the depths and intricacies of it. Most of us here (including our gracious host, Steve Ray) are converts to the Catholic faith. Now, with the exception of people who convert just to marry someone of a different faith, coverts for religious reasons tend to study and analyze the religion very deeply before making such a step. Many of us have lost friends or alienated family members because of our conversion. That's not something that you risk without making sure what you're doing is right. Now, I know a good bit about Catholicism, but there are others here whose knowledge positively dwarfs mine by comparison....which leads me to my point. There are two reasons to study a religion. The first is because of your specific faith in that religion. The second is strictly from an anthropological or academic perspective. As you are a self-professed agnostic, you obviously fall into the second category. This board offers you a tremendous opportunity to learn about what we, as Catholics, believe.....and the answers you get will be of far greater quality than what you're likely to receive from others who are less informed. I'm not asking you to agree, just to understand. If anything, it'll make your arguments stronger if you can accurately reconstruct our belief system. Agreed?


Now, since we hit a roadblock with Islam, let's skip that. You wanted to know why we chose Catholicism as opposed to any other religion. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that the PM posits the existance of the Christian God (yes, I know it's a leap, but we can always come back later). The choice then becomes, why ought one choose Catholicism over any other form of Christianty.

More on this later....it's coffee time! :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:54 am 
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hmmmmm - ok ---- This is the information age.....Anything that I can't "remember" during my long hours of reading.... I can surely find....even if I can remember a certain idea, but can't quite put my finger on it...then I can surely research it quite quickly also...

If you want to discuss the different sects of Christianity, and try and explain why Catholocism is correct...that's totally cool with me.....I would just ask that we somehow deal with "objectivity" vs. "subjectivity" (which will be hard in light of the topic at hand).... Theoretically - Catholics, and Protestants bow to the same God.....so gleening some objective "benefit" of one over the other will (for me) be quite impressive if you can do that - seriously speaking I would contend that there is nothing any person of faith can experience in this world that a person without faith can also....but I'm open.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:09 am 
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Cool.

Ok, assuming that we have a belief in the Christian God, now we have to choose which form of Christianity to adhere to.

First, check out : this link


It's the Yahoo directory of Christian denominations. What a list! How on earth is anyone going decide between all of those? More importantly, how can any single one of them say that their Church is the correct one and the others are incorrect?

So, pick one...any one. And let's examine their claims.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:25 pm 
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Well I think we will get into a protestant vs. catholic debate........how about judaism?

Max Majestic wrote:
Cool.

Ok, assuming that we have a belief in the Christian God, now we have to choose which form of Christianity to adhere to.

First, check out : this link


It's the Yahoo directory of Christian denominations. What a list! How on earth is anyone going decide between all of those? More importantly, how can any single one of them say that their Church is the correct one and the others are incorrect?

So, pick one...any one. And let's examine their claims.

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:27 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Well I think we will get into a protestant vs. catholic debate.....


Sure. Why not? That's at the heart of your question.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:45 pm 
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Well - I would figure we would get into the same old arguments (we must remember that I don't have a dog in this fight).......but we can give it a whirl.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:48 pm 
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Ok, for argument's sake, we're still assuming that Christianity is correct and that the Christian God exists. Looking at all those denominations, what questions would you most want answered before you converted to one of them? What would you ask?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm 
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I think I would start with.....what does the religion provide for me or what would I find withing the parameters that would not only improve my life - but help society in an objective way. .....this has to be a "noncontrastable"(bushism) :-) example really for me. It must stand independent and without peer as how it could empirically and objectively enhance my life or society.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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