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 Post subject: Avoiding the wrong hell problem................
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:44 pm 
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If a person is not "privy" to revelation....then they must accept or reject a religious tenet or claim based upon the authority of the proponent - there is no way for a person to resolve this conflict by sheer empirical investigation.......so I contend this should lead one to reasonably conclude that it is best to refrain or reserve judgment.

It is the reverse of Pascal's wager.
Acceptance of one God entails rejection of another. There is no guarantee that you have chosen the right God....for instance..
In Christianity..you believe that jesus is the saviour of the world.....jews and muslims believe just as strongly that he isn't....this is but a few of many examples.....so when faced with these competing claims in the absence of personal revelation - it is not possible to decide amongst them.....

SO if you consider it reasonable[/color] to worship a God....isn't it just as reasonable to refrain from judgment?....if this is in fact how we would define reasonable........is there any objective way to know that the christian is right and the muslim wrong - or vice versa?.....

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 Post subject: Re: Avoiding the wrong hell problem................
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:51 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
SO if you consider it reasonable to worship a God....isn't it just as reasonable to refrain from judgment?


I'm not sure what you mean here, swag. 'Judgement' of what?

Quote:
if this is in fact how we would define reasonable........is there any objective way to know that the christian is right and the muslim wrong - or vice versa?.....


Objective way? I guess that depends on what you mean by 'objective' :D Are you asking 'is there a clear way to know that Jesus is God' (ie, a part of the Trinity that is the One God)?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:54 pm 
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This is more of a ..."see how they answer" ... I mean obviously - you know me...I don't think there is any way to know...but I like to hear how people come their conclusions.....If you want me to change the theme- I can.....it's best not to read so deeply into this one......you should get my gist.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:00 pm 
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If based my choice of religion solely on which religion's hell was the worst, I'd be Baptist.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:05 pm 
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Max Majestic wrote:
If based my choice of religion solely on which religion's hell was the worst, I'd be Baptist.


haahahah - It's not the "worst hell" problem.....fine answer though.

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Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:57 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
This is more of a ..."see how they answer" ... I mean obviously - you know me...I don't think there is any way to know...but I like to hear how people come their conclusions.....If you want me to change the theme- I can.....it's best not to read so deeply into this one......you should get my gist.


I'm not sure you'll get a whole lot of answers. It seems a strange question as put. If God exists and He 'desires' that you not go to Hell, He will surely know of/present/etc. some means for you to avoid it, no?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:25 am 
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Student wrote:
I'm not sure you'll get a whole lot of answers. It seems a strange question as put. If God exists and He 'desires' that you not go to Hell, He will surely know of/present/etc. some means for you to avoid it, no?



I agree. I've never been fond of Pascal's wager....for a myriad of reasons. (We can critique it later, if you like.)

There are several possible choices to be made, though. Initially between belief and unbelief, then (upon choosing belief), the question turns to which religion ought I believe in? I know swaglatern will disagree with me, but I believe Catholicism to be the only rational choice. We delved into the PM argument in the earlier thread. The things that I feel are logically required to be predicated of such a being matches up only with the concept of the Christian God. Of course, there is a whole slew of Christianities to choose from. Epistemologically speaking, Catholicism is, again, the only rational choice. Is that what you're driving at, swag? Are you asking why Catholicism as opposed to any other Christianity?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:37 am 
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Well as we know..the PM argument can also "show" the existence of Allah as God....which is also congruent to this argument. .......I've been on Islamic forums before.....they are pretty much exactly the same as a Christian or any other, when they describe how they came to their religion......it's usually through some "personal revelation"...."rationalization"..."research"..etc...etc........SO....how can people all over the world from categorically different beliefs all experience revelation??????????? ....all of you simply cannot be right....but yet the aforementioned contend that not only is this reasonable...but completely obvious.... hmmmmmmmm -

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This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:46 am 
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If God wanted to kill someone, he'd do it. He doesn't need me to strap explosives to my chest and walk into a cafe.

The Muslim concept of heaven (72 virgins and rivers of wine) strikes me as exceedingly shallow.....not the sort of thing an all-powerful God would create. It sounds like the make-believe of a 7th century Arab trader, to me.

There are factual discrepencies in the Koran (such as equivocating Mary, the mother of Jesus, to an OT Mary) that lead me to believe an omniscient God did not have a hand in the formation of the Koran. (Now, I know you think such discrepencies exist in the Bible, but we already have another thread reserved for that discussion.)

These, amongst many others, are the reasons why I believe the PM cannot be the Allah of Islam.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:40 am 
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swaglantern wrote:
Well as we know..the PM argument can also "show" the existence of Allah as God....which is also congruent to this argument. .......I've been on Islamic forums before.....they are pretty much exactly the same as a Christian or any other, when they describe how they came to their religion......it's usually through some "personal revelation"...."rationalization"..."research"..etc...etc........SO....how can people all over the world from categorically different beliefs all experience revelation??????????? ....all of you simply cannot be right....but yet the aforementioned contend that not only is this reasonable...but completely obvious.... hmmmmmmmm -


That's one reason God gave you a "brain", swag. To learn, to consider, to think. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

What do you mean by 'experience' revelation? Revelation is something that is given us - like you might get if you sit in a class at school. I don't think 'experience' is a very meaningful (or correct) term for learning about God's revelation.

BTW - don't forget Joseph Smith - his story has similarities with that of the aforementioned arab trader/warrior.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:42 am 
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Quote:
If God wanted to kill someone, he'd do it. He doesn't need me to strap explosives to my chest and walk into a cafe.

That is just preposterous. According to that logic then christianity is false because Eric Rudolph murdered people in the name of God. You are smarter than that Max......the islamic martyr system as war time tactic...is completely beyond our scope of understanding...NO legitimate muslim supports it. There are some very twisted people who are manipulating youngsters in an effort to wage war against us....it doesn't have anything to do with religion in the context...it's just a vessel of manipulation.
Quote:
The Muslim concept of heaven (72 virgins and rivers of wine) strikes me as exceedingly shallow.....not the sort of thing an all-powerful God would create. It sounds like the make-believe of a 7th century Arab trader, to me.

Oh well.....it's funny how your camp always plays the "contex" card and "metaphor"...or "anthropomorhism" card, but it's not acceptable in other religions....heaven in the bible refers to "tree of life"...and "throne" and "made with the finest materials" etc..... if you want to split hairs, and fight over who has a better description as the basis for truth...well that's kind of silly.

Quote:
There are factual discrepencies in the Koran (such as equivocating Mary, the mother of Jesus, to an OT Mary) that lead me to believe an omniscient God did not have a hand in the formation of the Koran. (Now, I know you think such discrepencies exist in the Bible, but we already have another thread reserved for that discussion.)


So not even worth addressing....

Quote:
These, amongst many others, are the reasons why I believe the PM cannot be the Allah of Islam.


Yea maybe it would have been more convincing if allah spake to muhammed through a "burning bush".....sorry - couldn't help myself :-)

Just being funny.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:44 am 
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swaglantern wrote:
That is just preposterous. According to that logic then christianity is false because Eric Rudolph murdered people in the name of God. You are smarter than that Max......the islamic martyr system as war time tactic


I see. Can you point me to the Bible passage that says it's ok to bomb civilians? No? Then concede that Rudolph and other abortion clinic bombers are acting contrary to Christian teachings.



swaglantern wrote:
...is completely beyond our scope of understanding...NO legitimate muslim supports it.


Look at the statistics. There are many, many Muslim clerics that actively and vocally support suicide bombings. The Koran itself says they are to kill infidels.

Additionally, how can you judge who a "legitimate" muslim is?



Quote:
The Muslim concept of heaven (72 virgins and rivers of wine) strikes me as exceedingly shallow.....not the sort of thing an all-powerful God would create. It sounds like the make-believe of a 7th century Arab trader, to me.


swaglantern wrote:
Oh well.....it's funny how your camp always plays the "contex" card and "metaphor"...or "anthropomorhism" card, but it's not acceptable in other religions....heaven in the bible refers to "tree of life"...and "throne" and "made with the finest materials" etc..... if you want to split hairs, and fight over who has a better description as the basis for truth...well that's kind of silly.


It's not splitting hairs. The RCC teaches the Beatific Vision. That's far more complex, beautiful and reasonable than getting drunk and having an orgy.

Quote:
There are factual discrepencies in the Koran (such as equivocating Mary, the mother of Jesus, to an OT Mary) that lead me to believe an omniscient God did not have a hand in the formation of the Koran. (Now, I know you think such discrepencies exist in the Bible, but we already have another thread reserved for that discussion.)


swaglantern wrote:
So not even worth addressing....


Says you.

Quote:
These, amongst many others, are the reasons why I believe the PM cannot be the Allah of Islam.



swaglantern wrote:
Yea maybe it would have been more convincing if allah spake to muhammed through a "burning bush".....sorry - couldn't help myself :-)

Just being funny.



I'm not amused. How much do you know about the life of Mohammad? What ideas about prophets do you have? Specifically, about how someone who claims to speak for God should act/teach/speak.

If you can reconcile those two ideas over the vast factual gulf that exists between them, then be my guest. Jesus acted like He should have.....Mohammad acted like a murderous thug.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:11 pm 
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It just the brain...and its washed.... I'm the objective person here Max...you are completely biased obviously. Everything you state can be countered with simple responses - but I almost feel dirty doing it.

BOM CIVILIANS??? I'm starting not to believe what I am hearing...hehehehe
If Rudolph is acting in a contrarian way then a muslim would argue that the suicide bombers are actiing in a contrarian way - how in the world can you not understand that?
refuted

Muslims actively involved in support sucide bombing??....SO WHAT...Pat Robertson just advocated the assassination of a political leader!!!!!!!!!! (oh that's right - he's not a real christian..blah blah blah)
refuted

What do you know about Islam Max?.....your arguments are obtuse and starting to get weird...... kill infidels.???????? READ YOUR BIBLE. There is a great passage in the death penalty thread from deuteronomy.

Sheesh...


I could go on and on......

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:39 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
It just the brain...and its washed.... I'm the objective person here Max...you are completely biased obviously. Everything you state can be countered with simple responses - but I almost feel dirty doing it.



Swag, not everyone who disagrees with you is brainwashed. That's an unnecessary ad hominem attack. Please stick to the issues.


swaglantern wrote:
BOM CIVILIANS??? I'm starting not to believe what I am hearing...hehehehe
If Rudolph is acting in a contrarian way then a muslim would argue that the suicide bombers are actiing in a contrarian way - how in the world can you not understand that?
refuted


Let's see what the Koran says:

"And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter” 2:191

Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not” 2:216

Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14


swaglantern wrote:
Muslims actively involved in support sucide bombing??....SO WHAT...Pat Robertson just advocated the assassination of a political leader!!!!!!!!!! (oh that's right - he's not a real christian..blah blah blah)
refuted




What does the religion teach? You can see above what is in the Koran. Jesus taught peace, to love your enemy, to turn the other cheek.


swaglantern wrote:
What do you know about Islam Max?.....your arguments are obtuse and starting to get weird...... kill infidels.???????? READ YOUR BIBLE. There is a great passage in the death penalty thread from deuteronomy.

Sheesh...



I know a good bit about Islam and most other world religions. My minor was in religious studies. If you find my arguments obtuse, then perhaps you're not well-informed about what Islam teaches. I am aware of violent passages in the Old Testament. Read them. They are specific commands to specific people. They are not general commands to be applied in perpetuity.


swaglantern wrote:
I could go on and on......


By all means, do.

This thread is about why one ought to choose Christianity (specifically Catholicism) over any other religion. If you're going to debate, then give me facts.....not pontification.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:56 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
It just the brain...and its washed.... I'm the objective person here Max...you are completely biased obviously. Everything you state can be countered with simple responses - but I almost feel dirty doing it.


Honestly, Swag. Do you read what you write as responses? I can't even believe that you suggested you are being 'objective' or that you can actually 'counter' anything. You normally don't even attempt to counter things - that would require some thinking, organizing your ideas, and then presenting them. This is a great example thread of you not doing those things (at least not the last two).

And what is with the 'hehehehe' comments? Is your commentary meant to be a joke? Surely inteacting with the discussion - which you aren't really doing - isn't really that funny (and I've got to say, if so, what an odd sense of humor).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Max..My jaw just dropped...I almost can't believe what I'm hearing...you are sorely, sorely confused...and you sound like a fundamentalist christian..

I can swat your argument by using your own church teachings....

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to
the People of God in various ways.[18] There is, first, that people to
which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was
born according to the flesh in view of the divine
choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for
the gifts of God are without repentance. But the
plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in
the first place amongst whom are the Moslems
: these profess to hold
the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one,
merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship
God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the
Creator of heaven and earth,[1] who has also spoken to men. They
strive to submit themselves without reserve to the bidden decrees of
God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith
Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God,
they worship Jesus as a prophet, his virgin Mother they also honor,
and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of
judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.
For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God,
especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.

Over the centuries many quarrels and dissensions have arisen between
Christians and Muslims. The sacred Council now pleads with all to
forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve
mutual understanding; for the benefit of all men, let them together
preserve and promote peace, liberty, social justice etc....

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:23 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
..........



What's your point?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:49 pm 
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wow.

Are you Ok???

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:52 pm 
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Fine, thanks.

But I see nothing in the cathechism quote you posted that refutes anything that I said.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:06 pm 
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Well....that makes sense.

Max Majestic wrote:
Fine, thanks.

But I see nothing in the cathechism quote you posted that refutes anything that I said.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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