Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 28 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Don't tell the Buddhists, but Nirvana is empty....
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:12 am 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
The central point of Buddhism is to purify oneself and one's mind, become unattached to the world, selflessly give to others and eventually reach Nirvana. Nirvana is a somewhat heavenly state where the individual ceases to be and "returns to the source".

A bodhisattva is someone who is destined for enlightenment, someone who is capable of reaching Nirvana. Through selfless compassion, they reincarnate themselves in order to teach others.

Here's where trouble enters paradise (or rather doesn't enter paradise.) In order to achieve Nirvana, one must be completely selfless....completely giving. If someone is selfish, they are barred from Nirvana. If a bodhisattva desires to enter paradise, then he is selfish....and is therefore barred. If he desires to reincarnate in order to teach others (the ultimate selfless act, thereby indicating that he is worthy to enter Nirvana), then he will reincarnate and not enter Nirvana. Either way, he ain't getting there.

If he desires Nirvana, he is selfish and therefore unworthy of Nirvana.
If he is completely selfless, he will choose to come back rather than entering Nirvana.....thus illustrating that he is worthy.

Logically, Nirvana must be empty.

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:10 am 
Offline
Defender
Defender

Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 11:41 pm
Posts: 14025
Location: Joliet, Illinois
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: Catholic Monarchy
Yes, as they know from earthly thought.

Tadpoles ask the frog what living on dry land is like? After many frustrating attempts he cannot explain it because the tadpoles have not experienced it. So the tadpoles ask about breathing without gills, and other such questions and in each case the frog cannot give a positive answer. (Sort of like the Via Negativa in Eastern Christian mysticism). It becomes clear after several attempts that no one thinking earthly thoughts can think Nirvana and no one thinking Nirvana can think earthly thoughts. To each the other seems an impossible nothing.

Dan Lauffer

_________________
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.

"To say that God turns away from the sinful is like saying that the sun hides from the blind." St. Anthony the Great (of the desert)

"There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions." — G.K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:03 am 
Offline
Suspended at request of user
Suspended at request of user
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:32 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: Maryland
Religion: RC
I went through a Zen phase (without totally leaving the CC). Frankly, I found the philosophy of selfless giving appealing. In fact, there are some Christian parallels ("you must deny your very self"). However, you bring up an interesting logical problem with Buddhism.

I had a professor in college who argued that true altruism is impossible since our motives are always rewards based - even if unconsciously driven. For Christians that reward is, of course, Heaven.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:04 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:29 am
Posts: 6504
Location: Ireland
Quote:
Nirvana is a somewhat heavenly state...


Quote:
If he is completely selfless, he will choose to come back rather than entering Nirvana.....thus illustrating that he is worthy.

Logically, Nirvana must be empty.

Nirvana - you initially say yourself - is a state. A state (in this sense) cannot be empty. Nirvana is not a place (which can be empty), it is a state.

My understanding is that - according to some teachings - it is possible to "come back" and achieve a state of Nirvana. The two are not mutually exclusive. So it's incorrect to say that if someone reincarnates he cannot enter Nirvana. Nirvana is not another place separate from this existence, it is here and now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:35 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:27 am
Posts: 318
Remember, of course, that Buddhism does draw on Hinduism, wherein, within the Bhagavad Gita, we have an improvatory method of reincarnation. Also, there is the Christian apologetic that desiring Heaven is not selfish. Thus, desiring Nirvana, desiring perfect Communion and subsumation, is not selfish, by our logicla standard.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:46 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:01 am
Posts: 1117
Location: United States
is nirvana while still alive o after you die? I know its the final release, but does that mean now or your soul does not reincarnate due ot being at its highest stage?

to me, as a Chrsitian, my "nivrana" is hopefully going to Heaven for eternity.

_________________
49 lbs lost and 6.5 left to go

"One single act of love will make us know Jesus better...It will bring us closer to him for all eternity." -----St. Therese of Liseux


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:33 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:29 am
Posts: 6504
Location: Ireland
Both Hindus and Buddhists believe in the state of nirvana, and there are many different branches of Hinduism and Buddhism, so there is no single agreed belief about nirvana. I know that at least some Hindus believe that nirvana can be achieved during one's lifetime (though not necessarily during their present lifetime), and I know that Buddhists also believe this - as the Buddha (or Siddhartha Gautama, before he became "the awakened one") achieved nirvana during his lifetime, many years before the end of his lifetime, according to Buddhists. Buddhists tend to be open-minded and undogmatic about many things, including what happens once a person achieves nirvana, whether or not that person will be reincarnated again or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:19 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 3917
Location: A state capital on a salt creek.
Religion: None
Nirvana means "blowing out the candle"
Enlightenment-"to be filled with light"

These processes will happen at the same time.As the bodhisattva snuffs out the deisres of the self, that illusion of ego, he or she is filled with light so bright and blinding that it seems at first that it is not there.

_________________
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Tu ne cede malis
Vincit omnia veritas


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:27 am 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
WorBlux wrote:
Nirvana means "blowing out the candle"
Enlightenment-"to be filled with light"

These processes will happen at the same time. As the bodhisattva snuffs out the deisres of the self, that illusion of ego, he or she is filled with light so bright and blinding that it seems at first that it is not there.



Buddhism loves paradox.....

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:02 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 3917
Location: A state capital on a salt creek.
Religion: None
Quote:


Buddhism loves paradox.....


You have that right. Paradox though isn't really two contridictory ideas, but a single unified idea that is greater and more precise than either of the original statements.

Tradational catholocism makes use of paradoxes, the main one that comes to mind is that we must die and be born again to enter the kingdom. We must die to our self and selfishness and be born again of the love of God. Then it is no longer I, but christ that live within me. There are similarities, but there are diffences also, important diffences in the area of dogma, but the actual experiance and thoughts have parallels

Futhermore buddhism loves paradoxes, while catholocism contains such paradoxes at the apexes of it's doctrine. One of ours that come to mind is the trinity, three persons, one God. The main body of dogma though is suited to more linear thouaght.

[/quote]

_________________
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Tu ne cede malis
Vincit omnia veritas


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:54 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:27 am
Posts: 318
Worblux makes a valid response here, in saying the CC uses paradoxes. This thread, I regret to say, just seems to be intolerance for the sake of it, rather than a correctly argued dissection of another belief.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:56 pm 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
I didn't formulate the paradox. The professor and philosopher, Dr. Clifford Pickover, did.

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:47 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 857
All I know is Nirvana rawked the 90's.......

_________________
And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:38 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:45 pm
Posts: 841
Location: Moving around. Atlanta, GA right now
Religion: Catholic
Max Majestic wrote:
I didn't formulate the paradox. The professor and philosopher, Dr. Clifford Pickover, did.


Not sure if we're thinking of the same Clifford Pickover. Are you referring to the guy with the "Neoreality" books? Or is there another one I'm not aware of? Just wanted to make sure and maybe read whatever it was he wrote before jumping into the argument.

_________________
Nosce te ipsum.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:49 am 
Offline
Huckleberry
Huckleberry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:48 pm
Posts: 14677
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
Religion: Catholic
Cet wrote:
Max Majestic wrote:
I didn't formulate the paradox. The professor and philosopher, Dr. Clifford Pickover, did.


Not sure if we're thinking of the same Clifford Pickover. Are you referring to the guy with the "Neoreality" books? Or is there another one I'm not aware of? Just wanted to make sure and maybe read whatever it was he wrote before jumping into the argument.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Pickover


I didn't know he wrote science fiction as well, but apparently that's the guy.

_________________
"Spread love everywhere you go."
- Bl. Mother Teresa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:50 pm 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:46 pm
Posts: 2369
Location: Diocese of Brooklyn and Queens
the difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that the former encourages complete self-annihilation (cutting oneself from all relationships and desires), while the latter endorses a desire and relationship with the Almighty God over all other relationships. Buddhism sets a false dichotomy between desire and selflessness, while Christianity does not. One can desire God and still be selfless.

In any case, the goal of Christianity is not altruism, but eternal life, which is obtained through a personal relationship with God based on faith and love.

In order to love something, one must have an affinity for it and a relationship with it. But Buddhism says we must put out all desires and cut our selves off from relationships. This is an inherent contradiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:27 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 3917
Location: A state capital on a salt creek.
Religion: None
coolmk20x wrote:
the difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that the former encourages complete self-annihilation (cutting oneself from all relationships and desires), while the latter endorses a desire and relationship with the Almighty God over all other relationships. Buddhism sets a false dichotomy between desire and selflessness, while Christianity does not. One can desire God and still be selfless.

In any case, the goal of Christianity is not altruism, but eternal life, which is obtained through a personal relationship with God based on faith and love.

In order to love something, one must have an affinity for it and a relationship with it. But Buddhism says we must put out all desires and cut our selves off from relationships. This is an inherent contradiction.


It is said that budha observed the nature of desire, mainly in the fact that it cannot be fuflfiled. Desire arises from the ignorance of the ego, the false self. The self-anihalation does not need to involve the cutting out of relationships but will ususally expand them. As the buddhist aproaches enlightenment he or she bocmes more and more awere of his or her afinity and relationship to the world and others.


The goal of christianity is not eternal life, but the goal is to bring about the kingdom of God, to bring about heaven on earth and restore the garden.

The commandment of christianity is to love God with all your heart, all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself, and to love your neighbor as yourself.


Men were made in the image and likeness of God. Though adam lost God's likeness with the original sin, Jesus restored the likeness to himself.

Christianities Goal I will repeat is to bring heaven to earth, to have peace of earth. The goal should not be to convert eveybody, but to establish a dialouge and open lines of communication, not to ridicule and bring the basic econominc necceisties of life into everybodies life and to reduce national conflict, trade barriers and use a larger UN council to setle disputes and regulate global resources such as marine fishing, pollution, and other factor that effect on the world scale.

Peace wil not be permenant until all mechenisms that help people classify us vs. them are antiquated. The truth is that they are made just as well in God's image as us.

_________________
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Tu ne cede malis
Vincit omnia veritas


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:31 pm 
Offline
Middle Management
Middle Management
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:15 pm
Posts: 28909
Location: Sacred Heart of Jesus
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Christianities Goal I will repeat is to bring heaven to earth, to have peace of earth


Are you saying that is Christianities goal or that should be its goal?

_________________
Whence are we to find words enough fully to tell the happiness of that marriage which the Church cements, and the Eucharistic oblation confirms, and the benediction signs and seals; which angels carry back the news of to heaven, which the Father holds as ratified? -Tertullian

Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:05 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:29 am
Posts: 6504
Location: Ireland
Quote:
the difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that the former encourages complete self-annihilation (cutting oneself from all relationships and desires)... In order to love something, one must have an affinity for it and a relationship with it. But Buddhism says we must put out all desires and cut our selves off from relationships. This is an inherent contradiction.

That's not correct at all. Don't criticise what you don't understand. Do you seriously think that Buddhist cut themselves off from "all relationships"?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:42 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 3917
Location: A state capital on a salt creek.
Religion: None
Bonaventure wrote:
Quote:
Christianities Goal I will repeat is to bring heaven to earth, to have peace of earth


Are you saying that is Christianities goal or that should be its goal?



That is it's goal, to bring forth the kingdom of God. We of course hope for life everafter and the eternal boday. But our goal, our calling, our vocation is to radically transform the earth to a place where love of your neighbor is prominant, wars non-existand, violence and greed eleminated. A place where labor and toil is no more, but rather the work of man is joyfull and fruitfull.

_________________
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Tu ne cede malis
Vincit omnia veritas


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 28 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: