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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:33 am 
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Well which is it??? i'd be really interested to know.... and if he is folding his hands in prayer, the Bishops will need to get on his case and get him up to speed .... ::):
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Does the pope, when he attends mass, does he lift his hands during the Our Father? Or does he fold his hands? I really don't know.

And when the Pope receives Communion, does he return to a kneeler somwhere while the Host is still in his mouth and pray or does he immediately sing out loud until he reaches his pew (or wherever he goes after Communion)? My guess is on the former.


Having just seen the closing Mass for WYD, I can tell you that the Pope folds his hands at the Our Father and prays after Communion.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:42 am 
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Marie wrote:
I hear the Baptists will welcome me. Would that really be so bad?


Yes. The Baptists don’t have the fullness of Truth. They don’t have the sacraments (except Baptism). They certainly don’t have the Eucharist and that seems to be important to you, Marie.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:44 am 
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Marie wrote:
Despite what has been posted, I don't believe that people change denominations in order to "reject Christ". Just the opposite. Some people change churches and/or denominations in order to find Christ because Christ is elusive at their Church for one reason or another.

We are all human and imperfect. Some of us are just tired of trying to overcome the ridiculousness of our home parish. It's quite tiresome to go to Mass and leave feeling worse than when you walked through the door in the first place.

I (we) do attend a couple of other Catholic Churches in the area. What a difference! I feel a little guilty that I get so much more out of the fellowship, singing and homily.

The one thing I am sure of is this: God knows how much I love Him and how much I desire to do His will. I'm sure He is a little more than disgusted with some of the stupid stuff that goes on.

In the end, wherever I go, Jesus will be with me. There is only one God. But I believe there are many paths to Him. And if a Catholic Church turns people away because of their silly antics, that is not my doing. Nor is it my will.

Thanks for all prayers,

Marie


The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is the Church that Christ established on earth. If one leaves the Catholic Church, they are rejecting what He left for us. (Like you say, though, many do not realize that and leave in search of Christ.) Please don’t leave the Catholic Church for a church that has less than all Christ meant us to have. I think it is just fine to attend a different Catholic parish if yours is causing you so much distress. It sounds like there are some problems there.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:46 am 
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I have known a lot of people who have left the Church, for whatever reason...Most of them have returned. They simply missed the Eucharist. There have been times that I have not received the Eucharist for more than a week, and I feel an aching for it. Can't really walk away when you know what you'd be missing, you know?

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 Post subject: Re: Not Rejecting Christ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:03 am 
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Marie wrote:
The one thing I am sure of is this: God knows how much I love Him and how much I desire to do His will. I'm sure He is a little more than disgusted with some of the stupid stuff that goes on.

In the end, wherever I go, Jesus will be with me. There is only one God. But I believe there are many paths to Him. And if a Catholic Church turns people away because of their silly antics, that is not my doing. Nor is it my will.

Thanks for all prayers,

Marie


First of all, your post was one of the most beautiful I've read since I've started posting on this board.

I'd just like to point out that what one person considers "stupid stuff" may be very meaningful to another person, and vice versa. I never appreciated the Orans posture until a nun told us that it meant we accepted whatever came from God. I compared this in my mind to the traditional hands-folded position, which I always considered, from childhood, as the position of a supplicant.

So then I thought: hands folded upward=gimme requests to God, Orans posture=accepting God's will. I decided that the orans posture was the most natural prayer posture there is.

In most forms of meditation (yoga, for example) the meditators sit with their palms upward.

If you fold your hands right now, you'll probably feel a certain tension, whereas, if you sit with your palms upward, you'll probably feel a sense of relaxation and receptivity. I think that that's how God wants us to pray.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:24 am 
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Marie -- is all this about what position to stand in during prayer? It doesn't matter if I don't understand - but I guess I don't. Is that what you are referring to about running people off, or are there other more pressing problems than how to stand? Like strife in the church and other things. Like I said to begin with, I don't understand this thread.
I too have always heard holding hands out was to receive the blessings coming from On High.
If you feel God is leading you to go to a different church or parish, or you think He is, pray that you will clearly hear His voice and do His will and that you will be discerning correctly.
Sherry

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:59 pm 
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I never once said or implied that Baptists were going to hell or heaven.

The thread and my comment was about Marie. She has found the true faith and to abandon that is a very grievous sin, which will damn someone's soul. It certainly isn't popular to talk about hell, but Our Lord warned people that they were on the road to hell if they did not repent or change. If someone is damning their soul, its the most charitable thing you can do to let them know that.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:01 pm 
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Bonadventure -- com'on - that's not nice. A Baptist can love Jesus just as much as I do or you do. If they open their doors to people to hear about Jesus, then God bless 'em!


As I said above, I wasn't talking about baptists, but Marie.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:31 pm 
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She has found the true faith and to abandon that is a very grievous sin, which will damn someone's soul. It certainly isn't popular to talk about hell, but Our Lord warned people that they were on the road to hell if they did not repent or change. If someone is damning their soul, its the most charitable thing you can do to let them know that.


Just because a person feels that for whatever their personal reason they should leave the Catholic church doesn't necessarily mean they're leaving God and Jesus and they lose their soul. Changing religious affiliation is not the same thing as rejecting the Person of Christ. I know this is a touchy topic -- and I'm not trying to start a huge debate. This is another of the topics that I will have some problems with. Seems like my biggest problems are with the biggest issues! :)

I did notice today my priest's posture during the Lord's Prayer -- he held his hands out, palms up. So did everybody else, except a couple of ladies who held theirs folded in front of them. Also, as soon as he took the Eucharist, he stepped back, folded his hands in front of him for a moment, then completed with the Precious Blood. Then served the Extraordinary -- forgot what they're called - music was being softly played, but no singing. So, for whatever all that is worth.

Sherry

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:43 pm 
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Sherry, the problem with laypeople imitating the gestures and postures of the priest is that we are not priests and we are not supposed to do what he does.

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Changing religious affiliation is not the same thing as rejecting the Person of Christ.


What else would you call rejecting the one and only Church He established. The Church is His Body.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:53 pm 
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I guess it has to do with definition of "church" because the church is the believers that is his Bride, or the Body of Christ, whichever analogy we use.

Raising hands if the priest raises his hands is a faux pas -- oh, dear. I'm in a great deal of trouble. He's leading the congregation in prayer! Now, when he crosses for the blessing -- people cross themselves, not outward like he does, but that's different.

Well, going to bed.
g'nite all.
Sherry

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:23 am 
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I didn't mean that all gestures are prohibited, just the ones that only priests are supposed to do.

Only those believers who do as He commanded are part of the Body of Christ. If you don't partake of the Sacraments He instituted, then you are not a true believer and follower of Christ. If you reject a single thing that He taught or established or commanded, then you are not a true believer and follower; you're just an onlooker who acknowledges His Lordship. Even Satan and his followers acknowledge that.

Jesus established One Church, not many, and certainly not many teaching different things.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:45 am 
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James has this to say.

Quote:
10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.


We do not get to pick and choose what we think is important or boil things down to the lowest common denominator to include everyone we would like. The Church is a visible institution. It is not only a visible institution, but it is a visible institution.

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 Post subject: Not Leaving Catholicism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:53 am 
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I have no immediate plans to leave Catholicism. But, if I did, I don't think God would send my soul to hell for all eternity.

You know there used to be a time when Catholic was Catholic and that when you went to one Roman Catholic Church you knew what to expect. My parish is going through a tumultuous time. It's not terrible. But it's not a cohesive congregation anymore.

I can attend five different Roman Catholic churches in my diocese and the sacrifice of the Mass (some say "celebration") is different. Some stand almost all the time. That is tiring for me. I get restless and if I sit down everyone stares and I feel uncomfortable. So I stand and get irritated.

Some raise their hands during the Our Father - so high do they raise them that it looks like they're trying to change the lightbulbs in the light fixtures overhead. Some grab a neighbor's hand and then raise it overhead. Some fold their hands in prayer.

During the Sign of Peace, some hug a neighbor. Some shake hands. We've recently been told NOT to turn around and acknowledge the person behind you but to pick ONE PERSON and embrace them. What if I don't want to hug a stranger or don't want a strange man hugging me? (or woman either). And does this mean that if the person in the pew in front of me turns to shake MY hand, that I'm supposed to ignore them? One priest won't even include the Sign of Peace when he says Mass. That's o.k. with me. And I don't get upset by someone nearby because they don't want to shake hands with anybody. Maybe they have a cold or don't want to GET a cold from someone else. I'm understanding of all that. Once I did have a cold and kept my hands folded at my waist during the Sign of Peace. When a man next to me extended his hand, I quietly whispered that I had a cold - implying that he probably shouldn't shake my hand. He scoffed, grabbed my hand and shook it anyway. I really admired that man for doing that. He wasn't turned off by my germs and probably felt God would keep him well. (I wonder how he's doing? ::): )

Now at Communion we have the required "bow" that we must do before we receive Communion but I usually blunder this a bit and combine it with my "Amen" after the priest says, "The Body of Christ". So far I've seemed to squeak by with this gesture and haven't been denied Communion. They probably wouldn't deny Communion anyway but who knows.

I love the Catholic Church. But I must admit I'm not keen on any priest telling me to change the way I worship. From everything I've seen regarding the posture of the Pope during prayer, I have a theory: "What's good enough for the Pope is good enough for me."

Peace,

Marie


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:53 am 
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Sherry wrote:
.... But Catholic or otherwise, I would think if Jesus isn't there, you should find a place where He is!! I can't imagine anyone leaving a church to deliberately "reject Christ." If you get ministered to at the other churches, then go there. ...
Sherry


pointing out that the only way Jesus would not be at a Catholic Church is if every consecration were invalid... as long as the proper form, matter and intent is there, Jesus will always be present in a Catholic Church... it's why we call the Eucharist the Real Presence...Body, Blood , Soul, and Divinity of our Lord and Savior , Jesus Christ... and the way He has chosen to fulfill His Words in [bible]Matthew 28:20[/bible]

if receiving Him in Holy Communion is not being "ministered to" in the most sublime way, then there is certainly a disconnect somewhere... and it would certainly follow that if you reject His Presence in the Eucharist and go to a church with no valid orders, then you have indeed rejected Christ.... for something you think is more important...be that preaching, music, fellowship or whatever

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:41 pm 
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I understand what you're saying Faithfulservant. I may not be in total agreement, but I'm listening and learning your ways. So, I have a question:
Let's say you have a Catholic who is committed to the Full Presence, but for whatever other reasons, has become estranged to the Catholic church. And let's say that person visits my Christian church where communion is offered to everyone and the Catholic takes it. Now, if the Catholic believe the Full Presence is in the Eucharist, and the person sitting next to them has never even heard of Full Presence, that doesn't change the way the Catholic perceives the act of the Eucharist/Communion within their own spirit -- would it? Is it any different than if I say the Lord's Prayer and I believe God heard it, and the person sitting next to me is having questions about God entirely and recites the Lord's Prayer but is only uttering words, the fact that God hears it is still a fact, whether the person accepts that fact or not. Right? So, if the Bread and Wine fully contain the Full Presence as is professed by the Catholics, and if that is indeed a fact, truth, then whether Protestants know it or not wouldn't change it as a fact. They too are receiving the Full Presence without the privilege of being aware of it. Right?
Sherry

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:13 pm 
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Bonaventure wrote:
James has this to say.

Quote:
10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.


We do not get to pick and choose what we think is important or boil things down to the lowest common denominator to include everyone we would like. The Church is a visible institution. It is not only a visible institution, but it is a visible institution.


Quote:
AD BEATISSIMI APOSTOLORUM (Appealing for Peace) - Pope Benedict XV

24. It is, moreover, Our will that Catholics should abstain from certain appellations which have recently been brought into use to distinguish one group of Catholics from another. They are to be avoided not only as "profane novelties of words," out of harmony with both truth and justice, but also because they give rise to great trouble and confusion among Catholics. Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected: "This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly; he cannot be saved" (Athanas. Creed). There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim "Christian is my name and Catholic my surname," only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself.



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[url=http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/l13satis.htm]Satis Cognitum (On The Unity of The Church) – Pope Leo XIII
Encyclical promulgated on 29 June 1896[/url]

The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore :, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. "No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic" (S. Augustinus,De Haeresibus, n. 88).



Outside the Catholic Church there's no salvation


Saint Augustine, Doctor, (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermon to the People of Caesaria)



Warm fuzzy feelingness must cease in front of Holy Spirit protected teaching.


Last edited by beng on Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:14 pm 
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sorry sherry...i'm gonna have to read your question again...so far i'm a little hazy as to what exactly it is you are asking :oops: and how that relates to what i posted that you responded to....

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:20 pm 
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It's okay, faithfulservant. I'll just keep plodding along. I think I know what you would say, though. I think you would say the Eucharist has to be blessed by a priest in order to become the Real Presence, and if it's offered by any other than a real priest, then it wouldn't be "authentic." Right?
CatholicDefender did good to give me the patron saint of opposition to church authority! I am indeed having a huge amount of trouble with that.
Sherry

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:32 pm 
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Marie wrote:
"What's good enough for the Pope is good enough for me."


I totally agree Marie. But the Popes through the centuries have spoken about membership in the Church. The follwing is a short excert from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. Like I said earlier, people who do not know of the Church or have other impediments are a different story. You are in no way ignorant of the truth of the Catholic faith. I know this may sound harsh or cold, but I assure you I post these things out of love for you and concern for your soul.



Quote:
20 The Necessity of Membership in the Church.

Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation (de fide)

In the Caput Firmiter, the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declared: "The universal Church of the Faithful is one outside of which none is saved" (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur). (Denzinger 430). This was the teaching also of the Union Council of Florence (Denz. 714), and of the Popes Innocent III (Denz 423) and Boniface VIII in the Bull "Unam Sanctam" (Denz 468), Clement VI (Denzinger 570 b), Benedict XIV (Denz. 1473), Pius IX (Denz., 1647, 1677), Leo XIII (Denz. 1955), Pius XII in the Encyclical "Mystici Corporis" (Denz. 2286, 2288). As against modern religious indifferentism Pius IX declared: "By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into, will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord." (Denzinger, 1647). The last proposition holds out the possibility that people who point in fact (actu) do not belong to the Church can achieve salvation. Cf. Denzinger 1677; 796 (votum baptismi)

The necessity for belonging to the Church is not merely a necessity of precept (necessitas praecepti), but also a necessity of means (nec. medii), as the comparison with the Ark, the means of salvation from the biblical flood, plainly shows. The necessity of means is, however, not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In special circumstances, namely, in the case of invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership of the Church can be replaced by desire (votum) for the same. This need not be expressly (explicite) present, but can also be included in the moral readiness faithfully to fulfil the will of God (votum implicitum). In this manner also those who are in fact outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation.

Christ ordained affiliation to the Church by founding the Church as an institution for all men. He endowed the Apostles with His authority, gave them a universal mandate to teach and baptise and made eternal salvation dependent on the acceptance of His teaching and the reception of baptism. Luke 10:16; Mt. 10:40; 18:17; 29:19; Mk. 16:15 et seq. That those who, in innocent ignorance, do not know the true Church of Christ, but who are nevertheless ready to bow to the demands of the Divine Will, will not be cast out, springs from Divine Justice, and from the doctrine of God's general will of salvation, which is clearly proved in the Scriptures. (1 Tim. 2:4). The Apostles teach the necessity of the Church for salvation by promulgating Faith in Christ and His Gospel as a condition of salvation. Peter confesses before the High Council: "Neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4:12). Cf. Gal 1:8; Tit 3:10 et seq; 2 John 10 et seq.

It is the unanimous conviction of the Fathers that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. This principle was extended not only to pagan but to heretics and schismatics as well. St. Irenaeus teaches that: "in the efficacy of the spirit all those have no part, who do not hasten to the Church; rather they, by their evil teaching and their evil deeds, rob themselves of life. For where the Church is, there is also the grace of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Adv. haer. III 24:1). Origen formally declares: "Outside the Church nobody will be saved" (extra ecclesiam nemo salvatur; In Jesu Nave hom. 3:5); similarly St. Cyprian: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" (salus extra ecclesiam non est; Ep 73:21). The Fathers, for example, St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, regard, as types of the necessity of the Church for salvation, the saving Ark of Noah and the House of Rahab (
Jos. 2:18 et seq.). In the Primitive Church the conviction of her necessity for salvation found practical expression in her missionary zeal, in the readiness of her children to suffer martyrdom and in her battle against heresy.

In view of the stress laid upon the necessity of membership of the Church for salvation it is understandable that the possibility for those outside the Church is mentioned only hesitantly. St Ambrose and St. Augustine admit that catechumens who depart this life before the reception of Baptism can win salvation on the ground of their faith, their desire for baptism, and their internal conversion (St. Ambrosee, De obitu Val. 51; St Augustine, De bapt IV, 22, 29). On the other hand, Gennadius of Marseilles denies them this possibility, except in the case of martyrdom (De eccl. dogm. 74). St. Augustine distinguished also, not indeed using the terminology, between material and formal heretics. Thus he does not regard material heretics as heretics properly so-called (Ep. 43, I, 1). He seems to estimate their possibility of salvation otherwise than he does that of heretics proper.

St. Thomas, agreeing with Tradition, teaches the general necessity of the Church for salvation. Expos. symb. a. 9. On the other hand, he concedes that a person may be saved extra-sacramentally by baptism of desire and therefore the possibility of salvation without actual membership of the Church by reason of a desire to be a member of the Church. S. th. III 68, 2.

As against the reproach of intolerance a distinction must be made between dogmatic and civil tolerance. The Church rejects the dogmatic tolerance which concedes the same power of justification and the same value to all religions, or to all Christian confessions (Indifferentism); for there is only one truth. But the Church recognises the propriety of civil tolerance, by preaching the commandment of neighbourly charity towards all men, even those in error. Cf. the prayers of the Liturgy of Good Friday.*

(Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma 4 ed., pp 312-313, pub 1960)

*The old, pre-1955 Holy Week one.

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Whence are we to find words enough fully to tell the happiness of that marriage which the Church cements, and the Eucharistic oblation confirms, and the benediction signs and seals; which angels carry back the news of to heaven, which the Father holds as ratified? -Tertullian

Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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