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 Post subject: The Orans Posture and Communion Standing
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:32 am 
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What's the consensus here on the Orans Posture? My understanding of it is that there are only three dioceses in the U.S. that are instructing their congregations to use the Orans Posture during the Our Father. Personally, I'm not comfortable doing it, so I don't. I prefer to fold may hands in the prayer position during the Our Father.

Seriously, to me, it looks a little ridiculous to see an entire congregation using variations of the Orans Posture. It looks like someone is holding a gun on the congregation like some massive hold-up. I don't mean to be disrespectful but the people aren't even doing the Orans in the same way. Some people hold their hands out, palms facing upward, like their ready to catch anything that might fall from the sky. Some hold their hands up high with palms facing forward, toward the altar. And, my favorite (just joking) are those parishioners who hold hands with the person next to them and raise them high overhead. I haven't yet seen a person raise their hands overhead and begin swaying but I'm sure that's just around the corner.

Now, our entire congregation was instructed on just how to perform the Orans Posture. But people do what they want. We were told it was part of the GIRM that we are supposed to all do this. We were also told that by doing this we would all be doing the same thing. Seems to me that we WERE doing the same thing before they implemented this change. We were all reverently praying the Our Father without this distracting display. NOBODY is doing the same thing during the Our Father now. (I will say I have seen more polished fingernails and rings adorning hands than I've ever seen before.) I've been to several churches in my area and they aren't doing the Orans as a group. And they are in the same diocese an my church!

Also, we've been instructed to STAND during the entire Communion service - from the time the very first person receives communion until the last person. This can be up to ten minutes if the church is full. That's a lot of standing. And we've been instructed to stand and SING when we return to our pew with the Host in our mouths. How does one accomplish this exactly? I feel very close to Jesus at this time. But we've been told that Communion is NOT the time for personal prayer to God. Why would this be? I know Communion is supposed to be a communal celebration but I still need some quiet time in prayer and yet I feel like an outsider when I kneel with the host in my mouth and silently say the Act of Contrition.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:14 am 
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Are you in Cleveland? My sister is there and she's refused to do both. They're actually both against the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:17 am 
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Thank God my church does neither. You see some using the Orans posture for the "Our Father", but it's not all-encompassing. Good thing, too, becase it makes me rather uncomfortable.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:16 am 
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If you have been instructed that these things are according to the GIRM, ask for the reference. The GIRM is available online at the USCCB website. You can download and print a copy and then take it to your priest or catechist.

I have listened to a couple of interviews with Cardinal Arinze. He said that handholding (or orans by laity) during the Lord's Prayer is not specifically mentioned in the GIRM or in Redemptionis Sacramentum. This was simply not envisioned and therfore not addressed. These audio interviews are available on the EWTN website. Raymond Arroyo's "The Wold Over" has two different interviews with Cardinal Arinze.

As to kneeling during the consecration, GIRM paragraph 43 addresses this. Also if you want more information, the website www.adoremus.org has some articles about this as well as a transcript of the bishop's discussion of this issue when they approved the new GIRM in 2002.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:47 am 
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i find the orans posture very natural and more conductive to praying.
i offer up my desire to kneel in obedience to the church and find myself at the foot of Christ........believe it or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:04 pm 
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I looked up the USCCB website, and this is the quote I think you're looking for.

"In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal."

GIRM, Chapter 2, Paragraph 43 (Movements and Posture) http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/ch ... html#sect2

I don't know that there's a specific "rule" regarding the Our Father. At our parish. We hold hands during the Our Father. I grew up in a parish that didn't. Personally, I like the way we do it now.
:)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:07 pm 
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i offer up my desire to kneel in obedience to the church


I see what your saying here Mots, but the thing is the Church has instructed us to kneel. It is a few rogue dioceses that are going against the Church.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:18 pm 
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Bonaventure wrote:
Quote:
i offer up my desire to kneel in obedience to the church


I see what your saying here Mots, but the thing is the Church has instructed us to kneel. It is a few rogue dioceses that are going against the Church.



we kneel for the Consecration, stand for Communion and it was the kneeling for Communion that i offer up....

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 Post subject: Rogue Parish
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:20 pm 
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Rogue parish we may be. It's so sad. So many people just going along and having no idea why they are doing different things; why they are doing what they are doing. A bunch of sheep in peoples' clothing. You know what I mean.

How about the new hug we're supposed to give to one person nearby during the sign of Peace? This might be a family member but it could be a total stranger grabbing you during Mass. No thanks! I'm still shaking hands and if anybody grabs me I'm not going to be subtle when I push them away. If they fall down, they're on their own.

The whole thing is a farce. Until our bishop is gone we (my household) refuses to donate to Catholic Charities but that's for another reason - if you know what I mean.

God, the Church in the United States is in a shambles! At the very least, our Church has become a joke in town. I hope someday soon we get a pastor. Of course, all of these changes occurred with the old pastor who already left so maybe we should leave bad enough alone.

Pray for us.

Marie

P.S. I hear the Baptists will welcome me. Would that really be so bad?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:01 pm 
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P.S. I hear the Baptists will welcome me. Would that really be so bad?


Damning your soul is always bad. God will have mercy on those who are ignorant of the true faith, but you are not one of those people.

Our Lord is welcoming you right now......only He is welcoming you with the Cross of bitter suffering. But many of us are sharing in your suffering as well, so we know how you feel.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:28 pm 
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I do not understand this thread, folks. What is wrong with lifting your hands to God in prayer? (I guess that's what Orans position is). The Bible says to lift your hands. If it's distracting, close your eyes. You're praying anyway, not supposed to be looking around at what everybody else is doing! If you're comfortable with folded hands, fold your hands! That's so simple! There's freedom in Christ.
We kneel during part of the Communion, stand, kneel - not sure about sequence of events. I'll have to be more observant how all that coordinates. I think we stand when we return to the pew, but I think some kneel. Actually I think people pretty much do what they want to -- but I'll try to pay more attention. Actually, I'm in my own thoughts of my blessing, cares of the heart (don't take Eucharist), etc, so not worried about what the other people are doing.
If there's a song and you're not finished with the Host, either finish or don't sing.
This all sounds like man-made rules that are causing stress. Sorry - not trying to be argumentative. I'm really not!! I just really don't get it.
We shake hands during the Peace or introduction. Haven't seen any hugging! But if somebody needed a hug, I'd give 'em a hug!
Sherry

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 Post subject: A Big Part of the Problem
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:08 pm 
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I think a big part of the problem is HOW changes are presented. I attend a big, old church. It's a landmark. My mom attended parochial school there. I attended and my older children have attended. I still have one there, in fact. I mean I grew up in this parish and feel that a part of it is mine.

What I don't like is some priest, young or not, telling us to quit praying at Communion; that Communion is NOT the time for personal prayer! Are you kidding me? Of course, it's the time for personal prayer. We feel so close to Christ at Communion time. I'm not going to not take advantage of this closeness. I am NOT going to NOT PRAY. I'm the oddball because I kneel and pray silently for two whole minutes. Then, if I feel like it, I stand awkwardly until the priest sits down. Communion has lost some of its meaning. It's like we are all at a buffet, singing and socializing. It's not reverent like it used to be.

The Orans posture has become a joke. People do it. Some kind of laugh. Some stay out of it. Does the pope, when he attends mass, does he lift his hands during the Our Father? Or does he fold his hands? I really don't know.

And when the Pope receives Communion, does he return to a kneeler somwhere while the Host is still in his mouth and pray or does he immediately sing out loud until he reaches his pew (or wherever he goes after Communion)? My guess is on the former.

I have reason to be upset. And no one seems to care except the other Catholics who have taken the time to learn that something is very wrong in our parish.


Marie

P.S. I don't think Baptists are condemned, as a poster here mentioned. The ones I know have helped my family when they didn't have to. Some of them didn't even know us personally but gave of their time and personal possessions freely. The Catholics in my own parish didn't. I'm not saying that I agree with the Baptists about everything. But I don't think Baptists go to hell.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:24 pm 
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P.S. I don't think Baptists are condemned, as a poster here mentioned. The ones I know have helped my family when they didn't have to. Some of them didn't even know us personally but gave of their time and personal possessions freely. The Catholics in my own parish didn't. I'm not saying that I agree with the Baptists about everything. But I don't think Baptists go to hell.


Oh, I had missed that, Marie. Well said.
Bonadventure -- com'on - that's not nice. A Baptist can love Jesus just as much as I do or you do. If they open their doors to people to hear about Jesus, then God bless 'em!
Sherry

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:38 pm 
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Does the pope, when he attends mass, does he lift his hands during the Our Father? Or does he fold his hands? I really don't know.

And when the Pope receives Communion, does he return to a kneeler somwhere while the Host is still in his mouth and pray or does he immediately sing out loud until he reaches his pew (or wherever he goes after Communion)? My guess is on the former.


Having just seen the closing Mass for WYD, I can tell you that the Pope folds his hands at the Our Father and prays after Communion.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:46 pm 
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Having just seen the closing Mass for WYD, I can tell you that the Pope folds his hands at the Our Father and prays after Communion.


I didn't notice. Did he fold his hands for the Our Father? I'll have to check again, I have it recorded on DVR.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:51 pm 
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I didn't notice. Did he fold his hands for the Our Father?


I believe he folds his hands in some form. Perhaps I was wrong. :shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:52 pm 
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Sherry and Marie what you guys failed to pick up on was this:

If you leave the Catholic Church....you are rejecting Christ. It's not like you are just transferring denominations. This is the Church Christ established.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:39 pm 
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Marie, I'm sorry you are having such a hard time at your Parish. Did you talk to the new priest about your concerns? I'd start there. Also, priests can be led astray as much as anyone else. I believe they need our prayers more than anything. Do you have other parishes in your town or neighboring towns where you can attend Mass? I'm not saying that you should abandon your parish. My parents financially support their parish, but attend Mass at another parish for a reason similar to yours. They do plan to return to their home parish, but they just don't feel like they can right now. Don't lose hope. I will pray for you and your parish. God bless you.

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 Post subject: Not Rejecting Christ
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:14 pm 
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Despite what has been posted, I don't believe that people change denominations in order to "reject Christ". Just the opposite. Some people change churches and/or denominations in order to find Christ because Christ is elusive at their Church for one reason or another.

We are all human and imperfect. Some of us are just tired of trying to overcome the ridiculousness of our home parish. It's quite tiresome to go to Mass and leave feeling worse than when you walked through the door in the first place.

I (we) do attend a couple of other Catholic Churches in the area. What a difference! I feel a little guilty that I get so much more out of the fellowship, singing and homily.

The one thing I am sure of is this: God knows how much I love Him and how much I desire to do His will. I'm sure He is a little more than disgusted with some of the stupid stuff that goes on.

In the end, wherever I go, Jesus will be with me. There is only one God. But I believe there are many paths to Him. And if a Catholic Church turns people away because of their silly antics, that is not my doing. Nor is it my will.

Thanks for all prayers,

Marie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:30 pm 
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God bless you, Marie. I don't know what's going on at your church. It's obviously more than posture while praying. But Catholic or otherwise, I would think if Jesus isn't there, you should find a place where He is!! I can't imagine anyone leaving a church to deliberately "reject Christ." If you get ministered to at the other churches, then go there. God help you to make your decision with peaceful heart.
Sherry

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