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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:15 pm 
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Also....my apologies for using the word "hate" ...I'll gladly rephrase that to "pointed anger" ....ehhehehe - why else would you consistently ask the same question over and over, even in the face of answers, people of your own faith etc... Just so you can tell me I'm wrong?.......whoooooa? If someone isn't angry then I don't know what the problem is. :-)

I was around a guy who got a concussion once and he kept asking what time it was over and over, even after I told him so. ......that sounds familiar right about now.

You've been answered - I will not be wasting my time here anymore.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:21 pm 
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Are you talking about me, swaglantern?

You haven't answered my questions, and I don't have "pointed anger" at you either.

I'm engaging in a discussion.

Please answer my questions instead of hurling insults at me. Or admit you don't have the answers to the question.

Why NOT frame Joe? Why NOT cover up your mistake and save your butt?

There is no logical reason not to. Atheism has no answer to the question "why be unselfish"?

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I'm praying for the souls in purgatory. Come, let's empty Purgatory with Jesus' help!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:05 pm 
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BobCatholic wrote:
Are you talking about me, swaglantern?

You haven't answered my questions, and I don't have "pointed anger" at you either.

I'm engaging in a discussion.

Please answer my questions instead of hurling insults at me. Or admit you don't have the answers to the question.

Why NOT frame Joe? Why NOT cover up your mistake and save your butt?

There is no logical reason not to. Atheism has no answer to the question "why be unselfish"?


Let him be, Bob. He knows he has no answer and that troubles him, so he makes false accusations towards us in the hopes we will rise to the bait, actually become vitrolic, and give him the excuse he needs to assuage his inability to carry on self-illuminating conversations.

There is no logical reason why an athiest would not frame Joe. In fact, according to Professor Dawkins, it would be unnatural not to, for the framing of Joe is surely an action which would further the framer's ability to get his/her genetic material out there in the gene-pool. After all, it is most rare to see bums in the street with a plethora of children.

And as Dan so correctly pointed out, any sacrifice made by an athiest for the sake of integrity could not be attributed to the world-view they hold, but rather to some throw-back from a more pious time.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:32 pm 
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Good point, pax :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:18 pm 
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Pax:

Want a testimonial? My grandfather was raised a Methodist but rejected that sect, and all Christianity, radically, in favour of science.

But another concept he was raised with - that of personal honour, coming from my father's side's Southern aristocratic background - stuck, and despite endless personal tribulations, he has always dealt fairly and honestly with all who know him, ceaselessly giving to charity, and, whether it be as a soldier, a chemist, or a farm owner and administrator, constantly attempting to improve the human state, often at great cost to himself and his own state of mind.

Now, you may be quick to say, ah, but he had money (well, not always, but I'll let it pass), so that makes morality easy. So let us take a case in point from his time in the service.

He was an aide to a regiment commander at Kasserine, where green US infantry were overrun by a German armoured counterattack. There are eleven seperate testimonials as to my grandfather crossing an arc under heavy fire, in the open, to retrieve not one, not two, but four wounded comrades.

Under the ultimate threat, he returned time and again to help his fellow human (though as he has said to me, in one of the few times I've ever heard him curse, "I was scared shitless, I think I pissed myself about six times that day"). As a businessman (in the agriculture business), he was given several awards for morality and financial openness, in a time when such was not especially required by law. At my grandparent's 50th wedding anniversary, a massive business rival asked to come merely to give a speech on a time my grandfather allowed the rival to screw him over, only to hit back via increased production, granted by the devotion of his own workers.

And he was an atheist. So, in my grandpa's case, he doesn't finger Joe because he has honour, not religion. And honour is not exclusively a Christian concept; indeed, it is not exclusively a religiouis concept (cf the Greek philosophers).

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:39 pm 
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MoreistCarmelite wrote:
Pax:

Want a testimonial? My grandfather was raised a Methodist but rejected that sect, and all Christianity, radically, in favour of science.

But another concept he was raised with - that of personal honour, coming from my father's side's Southern aristocratic background - stuck, and despite endless personal tribulations, he has always dealt fairly and honestly with all who know him, ceaselessly giving to charity, and, whether it be as a soldier, a chemist, or a farm owner and administrator, constantly attempting to improve the human state, often at great cost to himself and his own state of mind.

Now, you may be quick to say, ah, but he had money (well, not always, but I'll let it pass), so that makes morality easy. So let us take a case in point from his time in the service.

He was an aide to a regiment commander at Kasserine, where green US infantry were overrun by a German armoured counterattack. There are eleven seperate testimonials as to my grandfather crossing an arc under heavy fire, in the open, to retrieve not one, not two, but four wounded comrades.

Under the ultimate threat, he returned time and again to help his fellow human (though as he has said to me, in one of the few times I've ever heard him curse, "I was scared (censored), I think I (censored) myself about six times that day"). As a businessman (in the agriculture business), he was given several awards for morality and financial openness, in a time when such was not especially required by law. At my grandparent's 50th wedding anniversary, a massive business rival asked to come merely to give a speech on a time my grandfather allowed the rival to screw him over, only to hit back via increased production, granted by the devotion of his own workers.

And he was an atheist. So, in my grandpa's case, he doesn't finger Joe because he has honour, not religion. And honour is not exclusively a Christian concept; indeed, it is not exclusively a religiouis concept (cf the Greek philosophers).


Your grandfather is a wonderful man, but it was not from atheism that he learned to be so wonderful.

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:38 am 
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Oh, clearly it was not from a decision to reject God that he learned his morals (and in that, I can agree with much of your statement, that you are more likely to learn strong morals through accepting rather than rejecting God). But nonetheless, it was not religion that taught him them, either. I think to make broad statements regarding why each of us does not frame Joe is not entirely valid' one must always attempt to take the individual into the picture as much as possible.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:36 am 
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His repect of joe and compassion for others. He doesn't need God to see that joe is not so different from him and that it would hurt joe if he unjustly layed the blame on him.

Religion is not mainly a matter of ethics. True religion begins only when the matter of ethics have been largely satisfied.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:31 pm 
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I wouldn't finger Joe because it is not their fault. And, God knows the truth. By lying to this man, you are lying to God. This is a temporary gain for a horrible loss. I would be consumed with guilt if I fingered Joe.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:36 pm 
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MySavingGrace wrote:
I would be consumed with guilt if I fingered Joe.



And it would hurt Joe, too.




edit: He did nothing wrong and yet his livelihood is taken away.

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