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 Post subject: Framing Joe
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:43 pm 
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Swaglantern refuses to deal with this question.

Would any other non-theists care to give it a try?

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You have just bought a new 4x4 and a cottage, plus you got a big mortgage and a high maintenance spouse. You work with a guy named Joe. There has been a mix-up which has cost the company millions of dollars. Whoever did it is down the road tootie-sweetie. The boss comes to you and asks you who did it. You did it. However, you can finger Joe and no one will ever be the wiser. What prevents you from fingering Joe?

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:38 pm 
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Any sense of strong morality, surely? Humanism? The concept of honour? Inherent honesty? I've known many a moral atheist.

And this comes from a devout Catholic.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:31 pm 
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Flaming Moe:

1.0 oz Blackberry Liqueur
1.0 oz Brandy
1.0 oz Peppermint Schnapps
1.0 oz Pineapple Juice
1.0 oz Sloe gin

Directions: It's just like a flaming homer but you blend alcohol, pineapple juce, and banana in blender until banana is well blended and smooth then pour into glass and 1 oz. of cough syurp, light then put out flame.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:56 pm 
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One of my close friends is agnostic (not raised in any faith...her father is a rabid athiest). However she is a very moral agnostic (she is celibate and always has been)....she does concede there might be or even is some sort of God.

Most of the things we consider a sin, she considers them to be 'wrong' as well, though she doesn't call it a sin of course.

She's in her late 20's....and for the first time in the 6 years I've known her, she recently asked a group of us (most of closest friends are Christian) to pray for a situation....I took it as a good sign!

Anyway...she figured out long ago there are christians and then there are Christians...unfortunately most of her dealings have been with the tares instead of the wheat.

I pray for her almost daily, that she will come to know and accept God.


SV

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:08 pm 
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heehehee - Flaming Moe...

No doubt my responses (others also) have answered that question satisfactorily many times....why you create a "fantasy argument" to "call me out" is good for a laugh though.

Maybe we should start a thread for you -regarding why you feel that you cannot have morality without religion.....because that is what you are basically saying correct? Even though biblical text, and the Catholic faith would seem to contradict you.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:38 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
heehehee - Flaming Moe...

No doubt my responses (others also) have answered that question satisfactorily many times....why you create a "fantasy argument" to "call me out" is good for a laugh though.

Maybe we should start a thread for you -regarding why you feel that you cannot have morality without religion.....because that is what you are basically saying correct? Even though biblical text, and the Catholic faith would seem to contradict you.


Ok. Try this one on for size.

The majority of the population of a country decides that certain, completely innocent individuals living among them need to be terminated.

Why are they wrong?

Why are they right?

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:06 pm 
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Oh, and no one dealt with my original post.

Just a lot of feel good I'm ok you're ok bs.

What stops atheists and agnostoics from framing Joe?

What stops Christians from framing Joe?

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:19 pm 
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My agnostic friend said her personal morals and ethics standard would keep her from 'fingering Joe' (I asked her the question pax)....she said she always recalls feeling that way, nothing happened to make her come to that conclusion.


SV

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:32 am 
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St Veronica wrote:
My agnostic friend said her personal morals and ethics standard would keep her from 'fingering Joe' (I asked her the question pax)....she said she always recalls feeling that way, nothing happened to make her come to that conclusion.


SV


I do not believe an agnostic or atheist would become a bum on the streets just to hold onto their own personal integrity. I have worked with far too many for far too long. When it comes to the blame game, most people will sacrifice their integrity for far less than the stakes I outlined.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:29 am 
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That may be true of most pax....but there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. I've seen my friend take heat and suffer other consequences when she refused to compromise her ethics/morals. Does she have a breaking point? Probably...I'd say most people do.


SV

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:02 am 
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Pax.....seriously. Step back and listen to yourself.
The subject of integrity itself has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the Catholic Faith imparticular. I could crush your argument by simply mentioning "hippy counterculture" .....people who became "bums" rather than sacrifice their integrity.....but I would rather not as it would lend some type of legitimacy to your words...which they do not possess.


pax wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
My agnostic friend said her personal morals and ethics standard would keep her from 'fingering Joe' (I asked her the question pax)....she said she always recalls feeling that way, nothing happened to make her come to that conclusion.


SV


I do not believe an agnostic or atheist would become a bum on the streets just to hold onto their own personal integrity. I have worked with far too many for far too long. When it comes to the blame game, most people will sacrifice their integrity for far less than the stakes I outlined.

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This God, this one word:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:25 am 
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Pax,

Your scenario asks a reasonable question but in our western materialist world people seem to have lost the ability to think in rational terms. The answer to your query is of course there is nothing to stop an atheist in your scenario from doing precisely what his impulses would urge him to do. He has no objective standard of right and wrong and so what's to stop him? Of course, the reason that some moral standards persist and the reason an atheist may decide that he ought to take credit for his own actions are the residual effects of theistic standards of morality, what might be called "habit". Nevertheless, the standard itself does not derive from any atheist or humanistic standard but from a theistic standard.

Don't Catholics train in philosophy, theology, and logic or have we given up those pursuits to settle for whatever Western materialism has to offer?

Dan L

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:43 am 
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Atheists can have objective moral standards.

Philosopher Russ Shafer-Landau in Whatever happend to good and evil? makes a compelling argument that the laws of morality exist is the same sense that the laws of logic do. (To say nothing of the influence of the social contract or Kant's categorical imperative.)

The point in contention here is punishment. We theists expect that there's a punishment involved for making the wrong choices....and that punishment is sufficient motivation to choose the moral course of action. If we sin, we risk hell...so we don't sin. Moral authority, however, can exist even when there is no threat of punishment. It's "doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do". Take, for example, moral vegetarians. They don't eat meat because they believe it's wrong. There's no divine prohibition against eating meat and there's no punishment involved if we DO eat meat. Yet, they act in accord with their moral beliefs even though there is no "persuasive punishment" involved.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:31 am 
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swaglantern wrote:
Pax.....seriously. Step back and listen to yourself.
The subject of integrity itself has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the Catholic Faith imparticular.


Well, your answer to the question was

"My brain."

So you would admit you caused the problem and not frame Joe? Or would you frame Joe?

The logic of self-interest dictates that you lie or cover up your mess. You cannot afford to have your life devastated, and lying prevents this great harm to you.

Quote:
I could crush your argument by simply mentioning "hippy counterculture" .....people who became "bums" rather than sacrifice their integrity.....but I would rather not as it would lend some type of legitimacy to your words...which they do not possess.


They didn't have integrity in the first place. LW-ism contradicts itself all over the place, and they hid behind "integrity" to do their LWW-lifestyle just like terrorists hide behind religion to do their evil. LW-ism is their real religion.

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Last edited by BobCatholic on Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:48 am 
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Max,

I'm not a philosopher but I did teach a survey course in it. It seems to me that a moral stand against anything without a first principle to base it on is rather shaky. What if an atheist one day decided that it was wrong to blame Joe and the next day it was? It does seem that a morality based upon whim? self interest? whatever isn't really a morality at all.

A second question: Is it not possible to have a theistic notion of God without that notion including either an idea of God being a rewarder or a punisher of good or bad behavior?

Dan Lauffer

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:07 pm 
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Athanasius wrote:
Max,

I'm not a philosopher but I did teach a survey course in it.


Nor do I consider myself one. I'm just a rapid student of the discipline.


Athanasius wrote:
It seems to me that a moral stand against anything without a first principle to base it on is rather shaky. What if an atheist one day decided that it was wrong to blame Joe and the next day it was? It does seem that a morality based upon whim? self interest? whatever isn't really a morality at all.


Correct, but there are principles that do not require theism for their basis. To wit: forms of natural law, social contract, Landau's position, Kant's categorical imperative, etc.

Athanasius wrote:
A second question: Is it not possible to have a theistic notion of God without that notion including either an idea of God being a rewarder or a punisher of good or bad behavior?


I imagine such a position is possible, but I can't think of any religion that operates that way off the top of my head.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Bobby

I don't think you know anything about the objective philosophy.
I don't think you really know what logic is, and I also think that you may want to look up the word integrity.......also read your bible bro - there are specific passages that relates to morality and how man can know it through his heart..etc..etc........
You and Pax...are just hating to hate. You're full of anger.
So if you want to attack me...at least brush up on the fundamentals...because your posts are laughable.


BobCatholic wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
Pax.....seriously. Step back and listen to yourself.
The subject of integrity itself has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the Catholic Faith imparticular.


Well, your answer to the question was

"My brain."

So you would admit you caused the problem and not frame Joe? Or would you frame Joe?

The logic of self-interest dictates that you lie or cover up your mess. You cannot afford to have your life devastated, and lying prevents this great harm to you.

Quote:
I could crush your argument by simply mentioning "hippy counterculture" .....people who became "bums" rather than sacrifice their integrity.....but I would rather not as it would lend some type of legitimacy to your words...which they do not possess.


They didn't have integrity in the first place. LW-ism contradicts itself all over the place, and they hid behind "integrity" to do their LWW-lifestyle just like terrorists hide behind religion to do their evil. LW-ism is their real religion.

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:32 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Bobby


Don't call me Bobby. I'm not a 6 year old kid.

Quote:
I don't think you know anything about the objective philosophy.


Your comment doesn't answer my question. Objective philosophy has no answer to the question.

Quote:
I don't think you really know what logic is,


In college I took logic and got an "A" and not only that I took several philosophy courses in college, so your comment is irrelevant.

Not only that, I logically blew away your assertion about sin in another thread, so it is you who doesn't know about what logic is.

Quote:
and I also think that you may want to look up the word integrity.......


However, you reject integrity by using that example of hippies who hid behind "integrity" to do their LWW-ism.

Quote:
also read your bible bro - there are specific passages that relates to morality and how man can know it through his heart..etc..etc........


But you reject the Bible so your comment is irrelevant.

Quote:
You and Pax...are just hating to hate. You're full of anger.


Disagreeing with you is now hate? Oh brother, you've bought into the LWW propaganda big time. That is what they believe.

You haven't answered my question on why one should not frame Joe or at least cover up for one's mistake here. Try again, instead of insulting those who challenge your [strike]propaganda[/strike] way of thinking.

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Last edited by BobCatholic on Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:39 pm 
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This thread is discussing the difference between atheist morality and theist morality.

Back on target, please.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:09 pm 
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At this point there is nothing more I can say to this guy...he's even been answered by people of his own faith?....so that being said I would have to point him to his God, and hope that he gets the help he needs. :-)

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

"I."

Ayn Rand, Anthem


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