Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 9 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: For Sherry: The Brethren of Our Lord
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:47 am 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73256
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Sherry wrote:
As for naming names, etc -- I gave you some Scriptures, chapter and verse. It wouldn't make sense in those context to say "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us?" They were talking about Jesus and his family. Not hiw whole neighborhood. If James and Joseph and Simon and Judas were somebody else's sons then what would have been the point of the statement.


The following excerpts are taken from Bob Stanley's website:

Quote:
Jn 7:5, "Even his brothers didn't believe in him."

Now if those were blood brothers of Jesus as many non-Catholics claim they were, then they must have lived with Him for much of His first 30 years on earth. Those who claim He had brothers, know full well that His mother and foster father knew who He was, and of course believed in Him. Would they then also have us believe that His siblings did not know who He was and did not believe in Him?


Quote:
Now we have four 'brothers', JAMES, JO'SES, SIMON, and JUDE to account for as written in Mk 6:3...

Mk 15:40, "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of JAMES the less and of JO'SES, and Salome." These people were at the crucifixion.

Jn 19:25, "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother (Mary) and His mothers sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene."
Note that if in this verse the word "sister" meant blood sister, that she is not named here. The context and placement of the commas preclude that there were two girls in the same family, both having the same name of Mary. Would not this cause much confusion in the family? By careful comparison to Mk 15:40 it is seen that Mary the Mother of Jesus is not mentioned, but Salome is. Also Salome is indirectly mentioned in Matt 27:56 as the mother of the sons of Zebedee. It can therefore be assumed that Salome is the unnamed sister of Mary in this verse.

Mt 10:2-3, "...'JAMES' the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddeus." Alphaeus is an alternate translation of Cleophas (Clophas) and so he is the same person.

Acts 1:13, "...JAMES, the son of Alphaeus, and SIMON Zelo'tes, and JUDE the brother of JAMES."

From these four passages, we see we have another 'Mary', who was the wife of Cleophas (Alphaeus), and the mother of three of Jesus's 'brethren', JAMES (the less), and JO'SES, and JUDE. This clearly shows that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was not the mother of JAMES, JO'SES, and JUDE of Mk 6:3. To keep Mk 6:3 in harmony, since three are not children of Mary, the mother of Jesus, then SIMON is not either. SIMON is the Canaanite Mk 3:18, also called the 'Zealot' (Zelo'tes), Mt 10:4, Lk 6:15, Acts 1:13. Jude, who authored the Epistle of Jude, says he is the brother of James in Jude 1:1. Jude was also called 'Thaddeus' in Mt 10:3, and in Mk 3:18. This was to distinguish him from Judas Iscariot. Lk 6:16 further distinguishes the two by saying, "And Judas (Jude) the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor."


Quote:
Jn 19:26-27, "When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple standing by, whom He loved..." The disciple was John, the author of the Gospel of John. "Then He said to the disciple, BEHOLD THY MOTHER."
Was John a child of Mary and blood brother of Jesus?

Read the following verses to see...

Mk 1:19, "...He saw James, the son of Zebedee, and 'JOHN', his brother."

Mk 3:17, "And James the son of Zebedee, and 'JOHN' the brother of James."

Quote:
Mt 27:56, "Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, (the less) and Jo'ses (Joseph), and the mother of Zebedee's children."

Mt 20:20, "Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons..."

Mk 15:40, "...among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joseph, and Salome (the mother of Zebedee's children)."

Lk 24:10, "It was Mary Magdalene...and Mary ('the other Mary') the mother of James (the less)..."

A comparison of Mt 27:56, and Mk 15:40, clearly shows that Zebedee had a wife whose name was Salome. She is called the 'mother of Zebedee's children' in Mt 27:56, and 'Salome' in Mk 15:40. They had two children, JOHN and JAMES, Mk 3:17. JOHN at the foot of the cross to whom Jesus gave His mother, was not a child of Mary, the mother of Jesus, but of Zebedee and Salome. If Jesus had blood brothers, why then did He not give His mother to them? Jewish law would have demanded it...


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3975/breth.htm

Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Siggy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:26 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:26 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Southeast Texas
Siggy - thank you for these. I will study it over very carefully this week. My work output suffered yesterday from my new addiction to this board, and I have to put petal to the metal as they say this weekend.
But after a cursory reading (only first cup of coffee yet - :? ) I can see your reasoning, but at the same time, I do not see how the couple of statements made in Matthew would make sense to be listing his family, his mother, his father, and then start naming people at random when they said his brothers and his sisters (didn't name sisters). But I'll continue to think it through. I do appreciate the breakdown. That will be helpful.
Sherry

_________________
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:50 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 23303
More reading for you Sherry:

www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

_________________
--BobCatholic
I'm praying for the souls in purgatory. Come, let's empty Purgatory with Jesus' help!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:58 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:26 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Southeast Texas
:) --- thanks, BobCatholic -- got it!! also saved in my to-do list!! :)

_________________
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:51 am 
Offline
Middle Management
Middle Management
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:15 pm
Posts: 28909
Location: Sacred Heart of Jesus
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
My work output suffered yesterday from my new addiction to this board


We've heard that before :) .

Maybe we should have a DCF anonymous forum in the support forums section :?:

_________________
Whence are we to find words enough fully to tell the happiness of that marriage which the Church cements, and the Eucharistic oblation confirms, and the benediction signs and seals; which angels carry back the news of to heaven, which the Father holds as ratified? -Tertullian

Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:19 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:21 am
Posts: 1348
Location: U.S.A.
This is not an attempt to hi-jack Siggy's thread, I would never dream of doing such a thing 8-)

This is just a side note,

I thought I would point out to you Sherry that there is also the belief that Joseph was an older man and a widower when he took Mary for his wife (this belief is primarily held by Catholics in the east). Part of this belief is that Joseph had six children, two daughters and four sons. These children would not be called "step" brothers/sisters in fact they would have been considered brothers and sisters of Jesus. Also if you examine Catholic artwork in the west St. Joseph is usually depicted as an older man.

_________________
For baby Luukas Image

There are many souls stretched out on psychoanalytic couches today who would be far better off if they brought their consciences to a confessional box.

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, Ph.D., D.D.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:31 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73256
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Sherry wrote:
Siggy - thank you for these. I will study it over very carefully this week. My work output suffered yesterday from my new addiction to this board, and I have to put petal to the metal as they say this weekend.
But after a cursory reading (only first cup of coffee yet - :? ) I can see your reasoning, but at the same time, I do not see how the couple of statements made in Matthew would make sense to be listing his family, his mother, his father, and then start naming people at random when they said his brothers and his sisters (didn't name sisters).


More from Bob Stanley, addressing your concern:

Quote:
If you will read Gen 29:15, "And Laban said to Jacob, because thou art my brother..." At first you would think Jacob and Laban are blood brothers. Now compare Gen 29:5, "..know ye Laban, the son of Nahor..." Compare Gen 25:21-26, and you will see Jacob was the son of Isaac and Rebekah. Laban was the son of Nahor. They were not blood brothers but fellow citizens. Christ tells the Multitude and His disciples in Mt 23:1-8, "AND ALL YE ARE BRETHREN." Did He mean they were all blood brothers? Of course not.

In 1Cor 15:6, Jesus appeared to five hundred 'brothers' at one time. Could all of these be blood brothers? Hardly. Then there is Peter speaking before one hundred and twenty brothers in Acts 1:15-16. Paul speaks of one 'called a brother', in 1Cor 5:11 and 1Cor 8:11-13. Paul asks 'BRETHREN, pray for us. Greet all the BRETHREN with a holy kiss', in 1Thes 5:25-26. The Bible has many more similar verses. No one has a problem with these verses. Why then do they have a problem when 'Mary' is introduced into the verse?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:20 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 6067
Location: Illinois
Religion: Catholic
Sherry wrote:
Siggy - thank you for these. I will study it over very carefully this week. My work output suffered yesterday from my new addiction to this board, and I have to put petal to the metal as they say this weekend.
But after a cursory reading (only first cup of coffee yet - :? ) I can see your reasoning, but at the same time, I do not see how the couple of statements made in Matthew would make sense to be listing his family, his mother, his father, and then start naming people at random when they said his brothers and his sisters (didn't name sisters). But I'll continue to think it through. I do appreciate the breakdown. That will be helpful.
Sherry
Ther authors said this because these people are not random, but infact, the Lords Family. I have 7 siblings. But only three of us are born of my mother. And this in modern western society. In middle eastern society, both today and in Jesus' time, all children of a given household or clan were refered to as brothers and sisters, even those of differant parents. They lived in extended families. When a couple got married, they didnt move away to start a new family, the Patriarch of the Household or Clan put an addition on the house.

_________________
O love that fires the sun
Keep me burning


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:04 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:27 am
Posts: 318
My half-brothers are, to me, full brothers; and in the Missal, notably in the Eucharist and Communion, and in the Penitential Rite, do we not speak of "brethren" and "brothers and sisters"? I wasn't aware my priest was my brother by blood.

_________________
We are the Roman Church, "the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul", "to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood..."

We are the tenders of Peter's grave, we are "the budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross."

Alleluia


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 9 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


Jump to:  
cron