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 Post subject: Stations of the Cross & Indulgences today (file attached)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:25 am 
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My new NRV-CE Bible has the Stations of the Cross - beautifully illustrated - and there is a page explaining the custom. If I'm reading this correctly, the indulgences gained by going through them is speaking in present tense -- and thus the belief of the custom will today gain you indulgences.
I have scanned the page and ask you to read this and tell me if that is correct. I would prefer to get answers before voicing my thoughts on this -- but so perhaps you can focus on my concern here -- if this is true - then it seems the belief is that you can still today "buy" a -- definition of indulgence - a forgiveness, a grace? -- perhaps not through monetary means but an action.
Also of concern to me is what I have underlined. Though I find this ritual of going through the stations as a very admirable devotion in itself as worship, I would think that the documented events of Christ's suffering would be sufficient without adding speculated events to into the sequence of the Blessed Event and making those such a bold part of worship.
Catholic Defender -- if you see this, this is yet another example of what I had mentioned to you as one of my concerns.
I intended to put this on MSG's thread on indulgences, but it appears I need to start a new thread to attach. I hope the upload will work - this is the first time I've added an attachment.
I'll be away for a while - will be back later on.
Sherry

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:27 am 
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I didn't attach. How do you do it?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:30 am 
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Living your life in a Christian is an action and the goal of it is to go to Heaven. We believe that doing special things help our cause before God and add a great deal to our spirituality and help us keep to the narrow path.

Which events do you object to and exactly why do you object to them? I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "bold part of worship". Can you clarify?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:32 am 
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sherry, please read what indulences really are before you voice your concerns... best place i can think of is here

read this first

http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_ ... gences.asp

then this

http://www.catholic.com/library/myths_a ... gences.asp

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Last edited by faithfulservant on Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:34 am 
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Sherry wrote:
I didn't attach. How do you do it?


Did you put it in the attachment box at the bottom of the reply window?

Siggy


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:34 am 
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Almsgiving is biblical.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:34 am 
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if it is on your hard drive, click on browse, then navigate to where it is on your computer, double click on it, than click on add attachment...that ought to work :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:04 pm 
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Yes, I put it in browse, then clicked on the attachment button next to the comments box, and then hit submit -- the attachment in browse went blank and I figured it was waiting for another attachment and didn't want to double attach.
Anyway - the part about the adding things - it's not long -- I'll just type it:

"Some of these scenes are described in the Gospels; others are not. There is no mention in the Scriptures of Christ falling under His cross, nor of His meeting with His Blessed Mother, nor of the story of Veronica."

I really have to go. I'll be back later.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:19 pm 
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It's safe to assume that Jesus fell while carrying His cross. It's safe to assume that His Mother was a witness. She was at His crucifixion. It's safe to assume that some woman wiped the blood and sweat from His face. The story of Veronica wasn't made up by the Church to spice up the Way of the Cross. I'll have to look it up and get back to you.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:27 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
It's safe to assume that Jesus fell while carrying His cross. It's safe to assume that His Mother was a witness. She was at His crucifixion. It's safe to assume that some woman wiped the blood and sweat from His face. The story of Veronica wasn't made up by the Church to spice up the Way of the Cross. I'll have to look it up and get back to you.

Siggy
Veronicas Veil is real. I am not sure how accurate the story is but the Veil with the face of Jesus on it exists.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:27 pm 
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Sherry,

At the end of The Gospel of John we read this

Quote:
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.


Obviously Our Lord did and said many things that weren't written down. Scripture doesn't mention Him Sleeping, but surely He did. Also there is a big gap in Scripture from when Mary and Jospeh found Him in the temple and when He started His public ministry.

Our Lord probably fell more times than the Stations have. The torture was no doubt more brutal and there were probably many other things that happened as Saint John alludes to in the passage I quoted.

Is the only problem you have that they aren't mentioned in scripture, or do you think that there is something wrong with the events themselves?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:31 pm 
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Sherry wrote:
Yes, I put it in browse, then clicked on the attachment button next to the comments box, and then hit submit -- the attachment in browse went blank and I figured it was waiting for another attachment and didn't want to double attach.
Anyway - the part about the adding things - it's not long -- I'll just type it:

"Some of these scenes are described in the Gospels; others are not. There is no mention in the Scriptures of Christ falling under His cross, nor of His meeting with His Blessed Mother, nor of the story of Veronica."

I really have to go. I'll be back later.


and what does this have to do with the indulgence problem you referred to?

did you wait for a while for the attachment to "attach", so that you can actually see the name before you hit submit...if not , that might be the problem...it usually tells you if there is a problem with the attachment

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:38 pm 
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Sherry, you cannot buy an indulgence. You can, however, earn one. The difference is as great as saying that you can earn extra credit in an assignment for a college class, or that you bought it from the teacher for cash. The church does not "sell" indulgences, nor are they ever "bought". Luther's problem was not with the abuse of indulgences, but with the whole concept -- if you remember, Luther wanted to take the Epistle of James our of the Bible because it contradicted his idea that you could have real faith that would save you without your ever putting that faith into action.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:59 pm 
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metal1633 wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
It's safe to assume that Jesus fell while carrying His cross. It's safe to assume that His Mother was a witness. She was at His crucifixion. It's safe to assume that some woman wiped the blood and sweat from His face. The story of Veronica wasn't made up by the Church to spice up the Way of the Cross. I'll have to look it up and get back to you.

Siggy
Veronicas Veil is real. I am not sure how accurate the story is but the Veil with the face of Jesus on it exists.


I was going to bring that up, too. It was in a Catholic magazine I read recently. I'll see if I can find it online.

Siggy


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:04 pm 
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AHEM.

The veil is real. The name Veronica derives from 'vera icon' (true icon). The woman who had the veil and turned it over to the early Church is unknown (her name etc) so she is referred to as Veronica.


SV

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:31 pm 
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I'm back for the time being -- let me see if I can respond in a way that will do your questions justice and my concerns justice:

I looked over the link faithfulservant, and it says;
"This technical definition can be phrased more simply as, "An indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal (lasting only for a short time) penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven." To understand this definition, we need to look at the biblical principles behind indulgences. "
Then it continues giving examples from Old Testament - before the Crucifixion of Christ when man was still under the law.

My point simply stated is once a sin is forgiven, that's it! Jesus paid the price. That is the Good News! He did it so we don't have to. To say that we have to continue on with ANY form of punishment as I see it is to "preach any other gospel than we have told you." (paraphrase) That in my mind is very serious stuff. I anticipate you will point to me nolo -- well - grace only -- well, yes. Grace only saves us. None of us can do enough good to impress God! What is it, our good deeds are but filthy rags in comparison -- (sorry this is all off the top of my head - don't have exact quotes) On Fulton Sheen last night he was talking about how the love of God keeps us from sinning. It was quite a good little sermon. I wish I had it on tape. But we obey God's law because we trust Him and believe His law is best for us - not to EARN favor. He bestows us His favor from His love and grace. I think it's Hebrews that Paul tries very hard to get this across to us.

That's another topic. I think I'm going to have to make myself a three columned list -- things I understand and accept as truth - things I understand and will have to pray about -- things I can't accept with from the teachings of my lifetime both from man and from the Holy Spirit within my own soul. I haven't done that yet, but it seems like maybe a good idea. If most/some of you are converts, surely you had some things that you had to thing over for a while.

Indulgences come in where the article that I can't get attached (would have to try now in another thread since can't attach at this point) says that to go through the Stations of the Cross doing an Our Father, a Hail Mary, etc, will gain you indulgences - speaking in present tense, though it does go though the history of where the practice originated. So, as a means of worship, yes, as means of praise, absolutely, even as a means of obedience in the sense we are told to worship and praise - but as a means to GAIN favor or forgiveness, I have a great deal trouble with it.

As to the events in the Stations not being Scriptual -- indeed, of course, without question there were events that we can safely assume did happen, and there were surely events we wouldn't think of that happened. It was all not recorded. There is a quote of somebody who said "If the Bible says it, I say it. If the Bible is silent, I am silent" -- again paraphrase. But I believe with all my heart that the Bible and its translations and what was included were led by the Holy Spirit and was guarded over by the Holy Spirit as it was the Word of God to be handed down to mankind for all generations. So, every version, every translation of language, it was all protected that mankind would not distort God's Word. So, if God thought it would have been necessary to add this event or this thought, then He would have been perfectly capable to see to it that it was carried forward.

To go through the Stations would be a most humbling way of worship, but why wouldn't just the recorded, documented events have been enough. Why did they have to embellish the events, common sensical as they may be. If you're building a faith for generations to follow, keep it as accurate as possible within the guidelines that God laid out for us in his Word.
There are other practices, beliefs I have seen where things are not recorded in the Bible, but assumed, or legends, or stories handed down - that has been taken as tradition and become the core, or at least part of the framework of the faith as a whole. If you want a couple of examples -- the story of St. Anne and St. Joachim, also the virgin birth of Mary herself, assumption, also the perfection of Mary - Jesus was the only perfect God/Man - not the Blessed Mary. Even the Ever Virgin, the Bible speaks of brothers, siblings to Jesus more than once. Though agreed, she deserves much respect and love. As the Church points out, she did intercede at the wedding, which is enough for me to accept her as an intercessor.. Well -- yet another topic.
See, as I said in my Decisions thread -- there's just some things that I don't think I'll get past to make a conversion to Catholicism, though I will continue as I have been. It is good to place our thoughts and our hearts and minds on Christ and His Word.
Thanks for at least giving me a place to share my musings, concerns and questions. Apologies this is a bit lengthy.
I'll check back later to see your responses if you so choose to do so.
Sherry

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:41 pm 
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so i'm guessing purgatory is another huge stumbling block for you also huh?

nope...needed no lists...just was given the grace to know that i needed to be in the Catholic Church...knew nothing else about the faith at all...in spite of having been married to a Catholic for 23 years at the time...and then because of that knowledge...was aware to i needed to accept all tha Church teaches and believes in order to be a Catholic...which i knew i had to be

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:47 pm 
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The brothers and sisters of the lord in the bible are not Jesus real brothers and sisters born of his mother Mary.

http://www.catholic.com/library/brethre ... e_lord.asp

The bible admonishes us to hold fast to the scriptures and traditions. So of course we hold fast to the traditions such as the names of Mary's parents.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:49 pm 
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so did you read the other link which explained all the indulgence myths... that is the one i posted first..but decided to add the whole schlemiel

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:53 pm 
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btw...i do very few things to gain the indulgence... since for most indulgences you have to have the intention of gaining the indulgence...but if the Church makes it available ... and it will lessen your purgatory time, then there is really not a good reason not to do whatever is necessary to gain that indulgence...especially a plenary indulgence

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