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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:42 pm 
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Swag, cutting and pasting large sections is inappropriate. We were to do this one-by-one. I think you've received reasonable responses to the ones you've posted so far....you may not agree with our perspective, but at least you can see why such "discrepencies" don't bother us. Please choose one to discuss before we move on to another.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:42 pm 
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ON THE SABBATH DAY
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5


Context is important -- Ex. 20:8 is addressed to the Israelites, Rom. 14:5 is addressed to a church made up of both Israelites and Gentiles who had converted to Christianity. There is no commandment that Gentiles rest on the Sabbath day like the Jews.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:43 pm 
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Ok feel free to delete it...I was trying to save some time!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:45 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Ok feel free to delete it...I was trying to save some time!


I'll let it stand for now. Polycarp answered the first one, so we can move on to the next on the list.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:46 pm 
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ON THE PERMANENCY OF THE EARTH
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2 Peter 3:10


Context is important -- in Ecclesiastes 1, there is a comparison between various things that are transient, or that repeat, while the earth is just there no matter what. In Hebrew, "forever" doesn't always mean "forever."

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I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen. -- St. Polycarp's prayer of thanksgiving at his martyrdom, 156 A.D.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Any ideas on why God would give different accounts of the same event? Two men, one man, one angel, etc.

We would probably ask why the same AP reporter would provide several different accounts for the same event.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:56 pm 
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He may have inspired differing accounts in order to get us to focus on different lessons that each account can teach. The Bible's narratives do not just relate facts for the sake of their being recorded for future posterity's knowing what happened way back when, but so that we may learn and know the truth that saves us.

Even an AP reporter might provide several different accounts for the same event, each telling of the story helping to support a different point he wishes to make about that event, or how that event might relate to other events or trends or institutions. (And please, no protests about supposed journalistic impartiality. I'm a journalist, and I can tell you there's not much impartiality in journalism, nor has there even much all that much.)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:58 pm 
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Polycarp....the permanency of the earth?.....I guess we can argue over what "permanency" means but.....I'm not sure your rebuttal does the job..can you expand?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:00 pm 
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Polycarp.............regarding the accounts...that is conjecture....
It would be more accurate for you too say - "there are discrepancies and we don't know why"

I will be back tomorrow guys

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And now I see the face of God, and I raise this God over the earth, this God whom men have sought since men came into being, this God who will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This God, this one word:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:02 pm 
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One more, and then I'll have to take a break from this for the night:

Quote:
ON SEEING God
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18


"See" can have a wide range of meanings. In Gen. 32:30, it refers to Jacob's wrestling with a man who was not really a man, but was a "theophany," a manifestation of God. So, Jacob had a very close, direct encounter with God, but he did not actually see God as He is -- by appearing in a human form, God was, as it were, wearing a veil. To see God "unveiled," in all His fullness and glory, is something that we just cannot do at this time -- it would require a transcending of the physical boundaries that limit us, for it is in God that the very universe has its existence. We can't even see the whole universe, so how can we truly see God who is greater than the universe? Thus, what Jesus said is true -- no man has seen God at any time, but Jesus, God's own Eternal Word made flesh, has seen Him.

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I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen. -- St. Polycarp's prayer of thanksgiving at his martyrdom, 156 A.D.

Baby No. 8 is on the way!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:09 pm 
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Polycarp wrote:
He may have inspired differing accounts in order to get us to focus on different lessons that each account can teach. The Bible's narratives do not just relate facts for the sake of their being recorded for future posterity's knowing what happened way back when, but so that we may learn and know the truth that saves us.

Even an AP reporter might provide several different accounts for the same event, each telling of the story helping to support a different point he wishes to make about that event, or how that event might relate to other events or trends or institutions. (And please, no protests about supposed journalistic impartiality. I'm a journalist, and I can tell you there's not much impartiality in journalism, nor has there even much all that much.)


If you're a journalist, how would an editor look on one account with two men, another with two angels, another with one angel, etc? How would the public look at it? Would it be reasonable to ask if the reporter knew what he was talking about? The difference between a man and an angel seems somewhat important to a story.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:21 pm 
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I'll give you an example from just this week: I wrote about a man who was arrested for aggravated battery, aggravated assault, domestic battery, and consumption of alcohol by a minor. However, I did not mention what he was charged with in court. He was charged only with aggravated assault and disorderly conduct. But why didn't I mention it? Well, my story was about a man being arrested, not a man being charged -- and anyway, when I wrote my story, he had only been arrested and had not yet been charged, so I couldn't have said what he was charged with.

That happens all the time in journalism, and in history-writing, and in preaching or story-telling. Failing to mention certain details or facts is not the same thing as denying those details or facts. Sometimes in journalism you have to keep things brief for the sake of space limitations, or you just don't have the information yet. Sometimes you put greater weight on certain facts, because other facts are irrelevant to the point you want to make -- and sometimes that's because you intend to inject your own bias or slant on a story, or else you do it without intending to.

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I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen. -- St. Polycarp's prayer of thanksgiving at his martyrdom, 156 A.D.

Baby No. 8 is on the way!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:38 pm 
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Polycarp wrote:
I'll give you an example from just this week: I wrote about a man who was arrested for aggravated battery, aggravated assault, domestic battery, and consumption of alcohol by a minor. However, I did not mention what he was charged with in court. He was charged only with aggravated assault and disorderly conduct. But why didn't I mention it? Well, my story was about a man being arrested, not a man being charged -- and anyway, when I wrote my story, he had only been arrested and had not yet been charged, so I couldn't have said what he was charged with.

That happens all the time in journalism, and in history-writing, and in preaching or story-telling. Failing to mention certain details or facts is not the same thing as denying those details or facts. Sometimes in journalism you have to keep things brief for the sake of space limitations, or you just don't have the information yet. Sometimes you put greater weight on certain facts, because other facts are irrelevant to the point you want to make -- and sometimes that's because you intend to inject your own bias or slant on a story, or else you do it without intending to.


Those are very good reasons for your story.

What were the reasons for the different bible stories?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:51 pm 
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There were probably many different reasons. One reason could be to provide multiple witnesses to a doctrine or deed of Jesus, in order to give good reason to believe it really happened. But each varying anecdote could have a different reason for saying what it does and for not saying what it doesn't say. You can see examples of the Fathers exploring those reasons in the weekly postings that I do of Sunday Mass -- Readings and Patristic Commentary.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/view ... hp?t=37316

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I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen. -- St. Polycarp's prayer of thanksgiving at his martyrdom, 156 A.D.

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Last edited by Polycarp on Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:55 pm 
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Yoga wrote:
Polycarp wrote:
I'll give you an example from just this week: I wrote about a man who was arrested for aggravated battery, aggravated assault, domestic battery, and consumption of alcohol by a minor. However, I did not mention what he was charged with in court. He was charged only with aggravated assault and disorderly conduct. But why didn't I mention it? Well, my story was about a man being arrested, not a man being charged -- and anyway, when I wrote my story, he had only been arrested and had not yet been charged, so I couldn't have said what he was charged with.

That happens all the time in journalism, and in history-writing, and in preaching or story-telling. Failing to mention certain details or facts is not the same thing as denying those details or facts. Sometimes in journalism you have to keep things brief for the sake of space limitations, or you just don't have the information yet. Sometimes you put greater weight on certain facts, because other facts are irrelevant to the point you want to make -- and sometimes that's because you intend to inject your own bias or slant on a story, or else you do it without intending to.


Those are very good reasons for your story.

What were the reasons for the different bible stories?
The Gospel accounts are not Jounalism. They were written as Catechisis, addressed to differant audiences.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:57 pm 
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Polycarp wrote:
There were probably many different reasons. One reason could be to provide multiple witnesses to a doctrine or deed of Jesus, in order to give good reason to believe it really happened. But each varying anecdote could have a different reason for saying what it does and for not saying what it doesn't say. You can see examples of the Fathers exploring those reasons in the weekly postings that I do of Sunday Mass -- Readings and Patristic Commentary.


If God is the author of the accounts, that's one witness. If men are the authors, the different perspectives make sense.

That's why it's important to get a specific description of exactly what is meant by a document being inspired.


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metal1633 wrote:
Yoga wrote:
Polycarp wrote:
I'll give you an example from just this week: I wrote about a man who was arrested for aggravated battery, aggravated assault, domestic battery, and consumption of alcohol by a minor. However, I did not mention what he was charged with in court. He was charged only with aggravated assault and disorderly conduct. But why didn't I mention it? Well, my story was about a man being arrested, not a man being charged -- and anyway, when I wrote my story, he had only been arrested and had not yet been charged, so I couldn't have said what he was charged with.

That happens all the time in journalism, and in history-writing, and in preaching or story-telling. Failing to mention certain details or facts is not the same thing as denying those details or facts. Sometimes in journalism you have to keep things brief for the sake of space limitations, or you just don't have the information yet. Sometimes you put greater weight on certain facts, because other facts are irrelevant to the point you want to make -- and sometimes that's because you intend to inject your own bias or slant on a story, or else you do it without intending to.


Those are very good reasons for your story.

What were the reasons for the different bible stories?
The Gospel accounts are not Jounalism. They were written as Catechisis, addressed to differant audiences.


Are Americans of 2005 the audience for the four gospels?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:06 pm 
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For a description of what exactly is meant by a document being divinely inspired, see the biblical encyclicals Providentissimus Deus, Spiritus Paraclitus, and Divino Afflante Spiritu, and the dogmatic constitution Dei Verbum. Both God and men are authors of Holy Scripture, just in different ways -- God is the true author of Scripture.

And yes, Americans of 2005 are among the Gospels audience, in the sense that we are meant to learn from them. But no, we are not the original audience, so we might have to work a bit harder to learn from them than an member of the original audience would have.

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Baby No. 8 is on the way!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:08 pm 
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Are Americans of 2005 the audience for the four gospels?


We are all the audience for the Gospels. God's Word is written for everyone. Some just choose to ignore it.

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