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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:17 pm 
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SalomeKaia wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
This is so weird......are these not contradictions?.....If a group of people tell a different account of the same story....especially if they insert supernatural identities where others have not.....is this not a contradiction?......huh?


Ok, let's return to our friend the dictionary, shall we.


Contradiction:
The act of contradicting.
The state of being contradicted.
A denial.
Inconsistency; discrepancy.
Something that contains contradictory elements.

n 1: opposition between two conflicting forces or ideas 2: (logic) a statement that is necessarily false; "the statement `he is brave and he is not brave' is a contradiction" [syn: contradiction in terms] 3: the speech act of contradicting someone; "he spoke as if he thought his claims were immune to contradiction"

Discrepancy:
Divergence or disagreement, as between facts or claims; difference.
An instance of divergence or disagreement. See Synonyms at difference.

Therefore, I guess the answer is yes and no: YES there is a contradiction in the sense that te Gospels are not identical and present different accounts, and NO, there is no contradiction in the sense that the Gospels are not necessarily false.

Zoe


What a contradiction means in logic is that you are trying to assert both a proposition AND its negation at the same time, 'A and not A'...... if one witness to a car accident says that he saw two cars at an accident, and another witness says that he saw only one, this is not a contradiction, a contradiction is when you are trying to assert a statement AND its negation at the same time. ''I saw two cars' simply DOES NOT negate 'I saw one car', unless the first witness had stated 'There was one AND ONLY ONE car' it does not contradict 'there were two cars'. The fact that different accounts present different details, does not a contradiction make.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:29 pm 
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Brother- then either one of them is wrong...or they both are.
Their perception of the even does not create the reality.

They are surely both not right correct? .....where does this lead then.

Student wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
This is so weird......are these not contradictions?.....If a group of people tell a different account of the same story....especially if they insert supernatural identities where others have not.....is this not a contradiction?......huh?

Reality exists in spite of us folks.....perception does not create reality.

Do I need to find the passage in the bible that describes the text as perfect, and beyond reproach?.........but this would be another contradiction..innaccuracy


Apparently, you just don't want to intereact with people's comments. Let me repeat for you...

Student wrote:
Now, can you please tell me how on earth it is that two separate news outlets just yesterday reported on the same story and all they reported wasn't identical? One even said the suspect was wearing a dark blue shirt while the other said the shirt he was wearing was almost black.


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 Post subject: word games
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:33 pm 
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Brother...if two people tell differing stories regarding an event ..then they are contradicting eachother......

Doom wrote:
SalomeKaia wrote:
swaglantern wrote:
This is so weird......are these not contradictions?.....If a group of people tell a different account of the same story....especially if they insert supernatural identities where others have not.....is this not a contradiction?......huh?


Ok, let's return to our friend the dictionary, shall we.


Contradiction:
The act of contradicting.
The state of being contradicted.
A denial.
Inconsistency; discrepancy.
Something that contains contradictory elements.

n 1: opposition between two conflicting forces or ideas 2: (logic) a statement that is necessarily false; "the statement `he is brave and he is not brave' is a contradiction" [syn: contradiction in terms] 3: the speech act of contradicting someone; "he spoke as if he thought his claims were immune to contradiction"

Discrepancy:
Divergence or disagreement, as between facts or claims; difference.
An instance of divergence or disagreement. See Synonyms at difference.

Therefore, I guess the answer is yes and no: YES there is a contradiction in the sense that te Gospels are not identical and present different accounts, and NO, there is no contradiction in the sense that the Gospels are not necessarily false.

Zoe


What a contradiction means in logic is that you are trying to assert both a proposition AND its negation at the same time, 'A and not A'...... if one witness to a car accident says that he saw two cars at an accident, and another witness says that he saw only one, this is not a contradiction, a contradiction is when you are trying to assert a statement AND its negation at the same time. ''I saw two cars' simply DOES NOT negate 'I saw one car', unless the first witness had stated 'There was one AND ONLY ONE car' it does not contradict 'there were two cars'. The fact that different accounts present different details, does not a contradiction make.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:36 pm 
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Doom wrote:
SalomeKaia wrote:
When were the Gospels written? 70, 100 years after Jesus' death?



More like 30-40 years.
Well since Peter and Paul both died approximately 30 years after Jesus and since Peter requested Mark write his Gospel, Mark was written during that 30 year period. Since many early writers claim Matthewe wrote first, then Matthew was written during that 30 year period, but before Mark was written. Since Luke wrote portions of Acts while with Paul and it ends with Pauls imprisionment then it too was written during that period. And sinve Luke was written before Acts then it too was written during that 30 year period.

John wrote 60 years after the fact. And it shows in his highly developed theology.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:36 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Brother- then either one of them is wrong...or they both are.
Their perception of the even does not create the reality.

They are surely both not right correct? .....where does this lead then.




Neither is wrong, they are both merely reporting what they saw and remember. The problem is that you are taking an extreme hyper-literal approach to reading these texts, and I rather doubt that you read literature other than the Bible in the same extreme, hyperliteral fashion. If you were to try to live your life according to the principles of interpretation that you are applying right now, your life would be an endless mess. Example, a teenager told to 'be home by 10 O'Clock' applying your principles of interpretation, would be lost:

'Mom told me to be home by 10 O'clock, did she mean 10AM or 10PM? I don't know! Moreover, she didn't specify the day or year when I was supposed to return! I just don't know what to do!'

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 Post subject: Re: word games
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:38 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Brother...if two people tell differing stories regarding an event ..then they are contradicting eachother......



So, unless people's account line up exactly 100%, word for word, exactly the same in every little thing, then one of the two is lying? Dude, you are being unrealistic, and extremely so. Try applying this principle in day to day life, and see where it gets you: nowhere! The fact of the matter is, that the principle of 'reconciling apparent discrepencies between different witnesses of an event' is far from impossible, and is in fact, done every single day, in every courtroom in this country. The fact is, that any lawyer knows, that when witnesses give accounts of events that seem to vary, all you need to do is just conduct a little cross examination to determine the whole story. If lawyers and judges just did like you want to do, and threw up their hands in despair 'it's impossible, we cannot reconcile these accounts!' it would not be possible to convict a single criminal of a single crime. In fact, though you demand exact agreement about everything from all witnesses, in order to take their accounts seriously, lawyers and police officers are suspicious whenever they see this happen, because when witnesses' accounts don't differ at all, it implies collusion.

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Last edited by Doom on Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:41 pm 
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Quote:
Brother...if two people tell differing stories regarding an event ..then they are contradicting eachother......
No not necessarily.

Example.
Story one. "Mr Smith fixed his brakes yesterday in his driveway, It was raining, He got all wet."

Story two. "Mr Smith fixed his brakes yesterday in his driveway. He took his shirt off because the sun was shining and he got too hot, then he got a sunburn."

No Contradiction.

Can ANYBODY tell me why?

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Last edited by metal1633 on Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:42 pm 
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Ok majestic requested another.....we didn't get any where on that one.
If you want me to use the word "discrepancy" instead of contradiction, inaccuracy, lie... whatever...then that's cool my brothers.

Where did Jesus ascend?

Mathew does not describe...book ends!....does not include? hmmmm-seems like a fairly important/ miraculous type of thing.

In the book of Mark it is in(or near) Jerusalem.......16:19

John same as Matt
Paul....same as Matt
Acts.....hmmmm ascends from the mount of Olives (1:9 and so on)
Luke.....Bethany!....

So we have 3 different locations, and a few non happenings

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:43 pm 
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metal1633 wrote:
Quote:
Brother...if two people tell differing stories regarding an event ..then they are contradicting eachother......
No not necessarily.

Example.
Story one. "Mr Smith fixed his brakes yesterday in his driveway, It was raining, He got all wet."

Story two. "Mr Smith fixed his brakes yesterday in his driveway. He took his shirt off because the sun was shining and he got too hot, then he got a sunburn."

No Contradiction.

Can ANYBODY tell me why?



It started raining while he was fixing the brakes.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:45 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Ok majestic requested another.....we didn't get any where on that one.


Yes, we did: namely your claim that there was a contradiction was soundly refuted. I won't let you claim otherwise.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:47 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Ok majestic requested another.....we didn't get any where on that one.
If you want me to use the word "discrepancy" instead of contradiction, inaccuracy, lie... whatever...then that's cool my brothers.

Where did Jesus ascend?

Mathew does not describe...book ends!....does not include? hmmmm-seems like a fairly important/ miraculous type of thing.

In the book of Mark it is in(or near) Jerusalem.......16:19

John same as Matt
Paul....same as Matt
Acts.....hmmmm ascends from the mount of Olives (1:9 and so on)
Luke.....Bethany!....

So we have 3 different locations, and a few non happenings
Bethany is a town on the eastern slope of the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem. Where is the Contradiction?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:50 pm 
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Doom wrote:
metal1633 wrote:
Quote:
Brother...if two people tell differing stories regarding an event ..then they are contradicting eachother......
No not necessarily.

Example.
Story one. "Mr Smith fixed his brakes yesterday in his driveway, It was raining, He got all wet."

Story two. "Mr Smith fixed his brakes yesterday in his driveway. He took his shirt off because the sun was shining and he got too hot, then he got a sunburn."

No Contradiction.

Can ANYBODY tell me why?



It started raining while he was fixing the brakes.
Three point for Doom for thinking through the problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:50 pm 
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Looks like that's resolved. Next one, swag.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:51 pm 
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metal1633 wrote:
Bethany is a town on the eastern slope of the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem. Where is the Contradiction?




A fact which can be confirmed by looking at this map:

http://www.bible-history.com/geography/ ... judea.html

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:56 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Brother- then either one of them is wrong...or they both are.
Their perception of the even does not create the reality.

They are surely both not right correct? .....where does this lead then.


That is absolutely true! That is something you seemed loathe to admit in the other thread (namely that reality is something we try to get insight into).

So in all things, we can only describe the perception - we can't get at the actual reality. In many cases, our perception can even touch the reality but we can never be the reality (we are not omniscient/omnipotent).

So what we have here is not a contradiction - and remember, it is contradictions you have inquired about. You have the two people presenting what they saw. And you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would honestly say (not even you!) that one was lying.

How about this... look at the characters you are typing on your screen in front of you. Are they black? Are they really dark gray? Which one is it?

And of course, on top of all of this, you are still not bringing up any true contradictions. Doom made it clear in one of his posts what a contradiction is. When are you going to give us a real contradiction?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:07 pm 
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So was it bethany or Jerasulem or did it not happen?
I'll have to come up with something better then......I tell you - the ressurrection is full of them! Something so important...

Where did the resurrected first appear to the disciples?.....I'll throw a little more land in between them

Matt........some mountain in Galilee...this is like 100 miles away 28:16 and so on
Luke.....EMMAUS...about 7 miles

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:12 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
So was it bethany or Jerasulem or did it not happen?



In the words of Mike Brady (the dad on 'The Brady Bunch') 'exact words are pretty hard to live by'

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:22 pm 
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Quote:
Where did the resurrected first appear to the disciples?.....I'll throw a little more land in between them

Matt........some mountain in Galilee...this is like 100 miles away 28:16 and so on
Luke.....EMMAUS...about 7 miles


St. Matthew does not say that Jesus FIRST appeared to the gathered disciples on a mountain in Galilee. All he says is that Jesus DID appeared to them on that mountain.

Again, no contradiction -- St. Luke just mentions things that St. Matthew doesn't mention. But St. Luke doesn't have Jesus and the disciples in Emmaus at the same moment (or within a few hours) that St. Matthew has them in Galilee, so this is another red herring.

Next example. . . .

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:24 pm 
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swaglantern wrote:
Where did the resurrected first appear to the disciples?.....I'll throw a little more land in between them

Matt........some mountain in Galilee...this is like 100 miles away 28:16 and so on
Luke.....EMMAUS...about 7 miles


[bible]Matt 28:16[/bible] wrote:
And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.


There is nothing at all in the verse to indicate any ordinal note with Jesus appearance. It could have been the 2nd, it could have been the 7th.

(which Luke verse are you interested in?)

As a side exercise for you, swag, have you spent any time trying to reconcile these for yourself? In the vast majority of cases, it isn't all that hard to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:36 pm 
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But if you reconcile apparent contradictions, how can you use them as evidence that the Bible contains contradictions? ::):

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