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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:38 am 
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Presdestination and our Salvation are intertwined ....

You must have the concept to accept and understand this, in order to realize the differences between presdestination to Grace and predestination to Glory....

III. Predestination and the "Elect"
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.

Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.

1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.

2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.

James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.

1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.

John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).

John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.

Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).

2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.

1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.

1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).

Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).

1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.

1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect).

Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.


Predestination to Grace is the act of becoming Christians it is the active Faith we have in Him always that then leads us to the ultimate Predestination to Glory if we have done as St Paul has admonished that we do in Rom 8:29,30.

IOWs those to who He has called to Him, they have already been justified therefore in this Glorified and the only way to achoeve this it to endure until the end which means that they are saints and Saints ....

Our choices are our own the fact that God knows them makes no difference in the mater because he does not interfere in them.

IOWS, just like Judas Iscariot we can be predestined to Grace but lose our predestination to Glory because we freely give that up of our own choosing....

I will address the further issue of the Saints in Heaven in another post ... Sorry I am new and I do not know whether I have a character limit or not ....

Pax Christi
Debi

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:00 am 
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I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.


There is much Scriptural eveidence that we do not sleep after we die ..... So that when breaking this down to people that do not use anything but Sacred Scriptura it is easy to show the Biblical evidence that they OVERLOOK, in order to prove their point. Most people that believe in the concept of Soul Sleep rely on a few verses of the Bible that are taken heavily out of context when they use them....

They often use the example of Lazarus and how the Lord took Lazarus and resurrected him from the dead and that he was sleeping, when in reality, what did the Lord say to Lazarus' wife later on ....He asked her this

Joh 11:26 And every one that liveth and believeth in me shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?
Joh 11:27 She saith to him: Yea, Lord, I have believed that thou art Christ, the Son of the living God, who art come into this world.

See taking things out of context only works when the reader that they are addressing is NOT knowledgable enough to go and read the rest of it for themselves.

They also use Acts 7:60 but when it is put together again even with only verse 59 you begin to understand the meaning a little differently ....

Act 7:59 (7:58) And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 (7:59) And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not his sin to their charge: And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

Why would he call upon the Lord to recieve his Spirit if he was asleep awaiting for him to do it? He would not because the meaning of asleep in this sentence can be taken literally or metaphorically

G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
Thayer Definition:
1) to cause to sleep, put to sleep
2) metaphorically
2a) to still, calm, quiet
2b) to fall asleep, to sleep
2c) to die
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2749

So therefore it can mean to metaphorically die but not to literally die, we do not die, only our flesh does ....

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:01 am 
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For more information to b able to contend with these issues Biblically

www.ScriptureCatholic.com

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:48 pm 
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MysticalRose wrote:
Presdestination and our Salvation are intertwined ....

You must have the concept to accept and understand this, in order to realize the differences between presdestination to Grace and predestination to Glory....

III. Predestination and the "Elect"
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.


I willavoid quarelling, since you sound like a good Molinist and I am afraid that through your position is commonly held today, it is unrepresented on this board

That said, I and other Thomists hold that predestination is the cause of foreknowledge, not the other way around. God knows the future, because He knows His will, both active and permisive. And I can quote a slew of verses too... ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:29 pm 
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1) God, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

a) Concept
In the widest sense Predestination is taken to mean every eternal Divine Resolve of Will. In the narrower sense one understands by it that eternal Resolve of Will, which refers to the supernatural final destination of rational creatures, whether the object of this be their acceptance into eternal bliss or their exclusion therefrom. In the narrowest sense it is taken to mean the eternal Divine Resolve of Will to assume certain rational creatures into the bliss of Heaven: Praedestinatio est quaedam ratio ordinis aliquorum in salutem aeternam in mente divina existens (S. Th I 23, 2)

Predestination implies an act of the Divine Intellect and of the Divine Will of pre-science and predetermination. According to its efficacy in time it is distinguished as praedestinatio incompleta or inadaequata, which signifies either Predestination to grace only (praedestinatio ad gratiam tantum) or Predestination to Glory (praedestinatio ad gloriam tantum), or praedestinatio completa or adaequata which is a predestination to both grace and glory. St. Thomas defines Complete Predestination as: :"praeparatio gratiae in prawsenti et gloriae in futuro" (the preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the future) (St. th. 23, 2 ob. 4)

b) Reality

This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it. D 805, 825, 827. Cf. D 316 et seq., 320 et seq.
The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq:"For whom He forknew, He also predestined to be made conformable to the image of His Son: that He might be called the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom He predestined, them He also called. And whom He called, them He also justified. And whom He justified, them He also glorified." This text stresses all the elements necessary for complete predestination, the activity of reason and of will (praescire, praedestinare) and the principal stages of its temporal realisation (vocare, iustificare, glorificare). cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq.

St. Augustine and his disciples defend Predestination against the Pelagians and the Semi-Pelagians, as a tradition of Faith. St. Augustine comments: "The belief in this predetermination, which is now being zealously defended against new errors, has always been held by the Church." (De dono persev. 23:65)

Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence. (see Doctrine of Creation, par. 10)

2) BASIS OF PREDESTINATION

a) The Problem

The main difficulty of the doctrine of Predestination lies in the question whether God's eternal resolve of Predestination has been taken with or without consideration of the merits of the man (postorante praevisa merita).

Only incomplete Predestination to grace is independent of every merit (ante praevisa merita), as the first grace cannot be merited. In the same way, complete Predestination to grace and glory conjointly is independent of every merit, as the first grace cannot be merited, and the consequent graces, as well as the merits acquired with these graces and their reward, depend like the links of a chain, on the first grace. If Predestination is conceived as Predestination to glory alone, then the question arises whether the Predestinationto eternal bliss occurs by reason of forseen supernatural merits of men (post praevisa merita) or without consideration of them (ante praevisa merita). According to the former view, the Divine Resolve is conditioned (hypothetical), according to the latter, it is unconditioned (absolute).

b) Attempts at Solution

The Thomists, the Augustinians, the majority of the Scotists and also individual older Molinists (Suarez, St. Bellarmine) teach an absolute Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), therefore ante praevisa merita. According to them, God freely resolves from all Eternity, without consideration of the merits of man's grace, to call certain men to beatification and therefore to bestow on them graces which will infallibly secure the execution of the Divine Decree (ordo intentionis). In time God first gives to the predestined effective graces and then eternal bliss as a reward for the merits which flow from their free cooperation with grace (ordo executionis). The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis are in inverse relation to each other (glory-grace; grace-glory).

Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, postand propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media, sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory).

Both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible. The scriptural proofs are not decisive for either side. The Thomists quote above all passages from the Letter to the Romans, in which the Divine factor in salvation is brought strongly to the foreground (Rom 8:29; 9:11-13, 9:20 et seq.) However, the Apostle does not speak of the Predestination to glory alone, but of the Predestination to grace and glory conjointly, which is independent of every merit. The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the 'preparation' for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them.

Citations from the Fathers or from the scholastics are not cogent, as the question arose in post-ridentine Theology only*. While the pre-Augustinian tradition is in favour of the Molinistic explanation, St. Augustine, at least in his later writings, is more in favour of the Thomistic explanation. The Thomist view emphasises God's universal casuality while the other view stresses the universality of the Divine salvific will, man's freedom and his cooperation in his salvation. The difficulties on both sides prove that Predestination even for reason enlightened by faith, is an unfathomable mystery (Rom XI, 33 et seq.)


3) PROPERTIES OF PREDESTINATION

a) Immutability

The resolve of Predestination, as an act of the divine knowledge and will, is as immutable as the Divine Essence itself. The number of those who are registered in the Book of Life (Phil 4:3, Rev 17:8; cf. Lk 10:20) is formally and materially fixed, that is, God knows and determines with infallible certainty in advance, how many and which men will be saved. What the numbers of the predestined is, God alone knows: Deus, cui soli cognitus est numerus electorum in superna felicitate locandus (Secreta pro vivis et defunctis). In contrast to the rigorist view of Mt. 7:13 et seq. (cf. Mt. 22:14), with which St. Thomas agreed (S. Th. I 23, 7), that the number of the predestined is smaller than the number of the reprobate, one might assume, in view of God's universal desire for salvation, that the Kingdom of Christ is not smalled than the Kingdom of Satan.

b) Uncertainty

The Council of Trent declared against Calvin, that certainty in regard to one's Predestination can be attained by special Revelation only . . . Holy Scripture enjoins man to work out his salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). He who imagines that he will stand should take care lest he fall (1 Cor 10:12). In spite of this uncertainty there are signs of Predetermination which indicate a high probability of one's Predestination, e.g., a persevering practice of the virtues recommended in the Eight Beatitudes, frequent reception of Holy Communion, active love of one's neighbor, love for Christ and for the Church, veneration of the Mother of God

THE MYSTERY OF REPROBATION

1) CONCEPT AND REALITY OF REPROBATION

By Reprobation is understood the eternal Resolve of God's Will to exclude certain rational creatures from eternal bliss. While God, by His grace, positively cooperates in the supernatural merits, which lead to beatification, He merely permits sin, which leads to eternal damnation.

Regarding the content of the resolve of Reprobation, a distinction is made between positive and negative Reprobation, according as the Divine resolve of Reprobation has for its object condemnation to the eternal punishment of hell, or exclusion from the Beatific Vision. Having regard to the reason for Reprobation, a distinction is made between conditioned and unconditioned (absolute) Reprobation, insofar as the Divine resolve of Reprobation is dependent on, or independent of the prevision of future demerits.

God, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)

The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church. The Synod of Valence (855) teaches: fatemur praedestinationem impiorum ad mortem (D 322). It is declared in Mt. 25:41: "Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels," and by Rom. 9:22: "Vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction."

2) POSITIVE REPROBATION

a) Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Hus, and esp. Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent. Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

b) According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive Reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita).

The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God's desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim 2:4, Ezek 33:11, 2 Pet 3:9)

St. Augustine teaches: "God is good, God is just. He can save a person without good works, because He is good; but He cannot condemn anyone without evil works, because He is just" (Contra Jul. III, 18:35)

3) NEGATIVE REPROBATION

In the question of Reprobation, the Thomist view favours not an absolute, but only a negative Reprobation. This is conceived by most Thomists as non-election to eternal bliss (non-electio), together with the Divine resolve to permit some rational creatures to fall into sin, and thus by their own guilt to lose eternal salvation. In contrast to the absolute Positive Reprobation of the Predestinarians, Thomists insist on the universality of the Divine Resolve of Salvation and Redemption, the allocation of sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man's will. However, it is difficult to find an intrinsic concordance between unconditioned non-election and the universality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. In practice, the unconditioned negative Reprobation of the Thomists involves the same result as the unconditioned positive Reprobation of the heretical Predestinarians, since outside Heaven and Hell there is no third final state.

PROPERTIES OF REPROBATION

Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men.

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, pg 244

*PED's note....not quite. St. Thomas addresses this very question (of course holding the view named after him ::): )

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:43 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
MysticalRose wrote:
Presdestination and our Salvation are intertwined ....

You must have the concept to accept and understand this, in order to realize the differences between presdestination to Grace and predestination to Glory....

III. Predestination and the "Elect"
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.


I willavoid quarelling, since you sound like a good Molinist and I am afraid that through your position is commonly held today, it is unrepresented on this board

That said, I and other Thomists hold that predestination is the cause of foreknowledge, not the other way around. God knows the future, because He knows His will, both active and permisive. And I can quote a slew of verses too... ;)
Yes but your point of view would then take away the point that we have Free Will and would lend to the points of Calvinism which is not endorsed by the Church. The Church does not endorse the absence of Free Will. You could quote a slew of verses yes but I ask this can I then disprove the accuracy of them and the context of which they are used .... Again not meaning to cause a argument but at the same time holding to the Standards set by the Church

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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Visible example of this that we have ....

The Father obviously did this with our Mother and Queen of Heaven, Mary, but the point is still made that her active cooperation was needed .... IOWs it had to be an active choice on her part therefore it was still an active part of her Free Will to participate in her predestination ....

Judas Iscariot on the other hand did what? He chose to defy his predestination to Glory.

So therefore, Presdestination to Glory is still something that needs active participation of Free Will on the part of the one that has been chosen.

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The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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MysticalRose wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Yes but your point of view would then take away the point that we have Free Will and would lend to the points of Calvinism which is not endorsed by the Church. The Church does not endorse the absence of Free Will. You could quote a slew of verses yes but I ask this can I then disprove the accuracy of them and the context of which they are used .... Again not meaning to cause a argument but at the same time holding to the Standards set by the Church

No, it doesn't diminish free will at all

Thomism (the official teaching of Dominicans and Carmelites), Scotism (Franciscans), Congruism (Jesuit's official position), Augustinianism (Augustinians) all hold to what I have said

The Molinists (mostly Jesuits) hold to what you do. Both are orthodox and acceptable for Catholics and yes both have difficulties. Read my long post above..

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MysticalRose wrote:
Visible example of this that we have ....

The Father obviously did this with our Mother and Queen of Heaven, Mary, but the point is still made that her active cooperation was needed .... IOWs it had to be an active choice on her part therefore it was still an active part of her Free Will to participate in her predestination ....

Judas Iscariot on the other hand did what? He chose to defy his predestination to Glory.

So therefore, Presdestination to Glory is still something that needs active participation of Free Will on the part of the one that has been chosen.

umm...no. Those who are predestined are predestined. They will, infallibly make it to haven. God's consequent will cannot be thwarted. Judas would have not been predestined to heaven. God's desire for his salvation was real, but belongs to His conditional will, not is simple will.

Even the Free acts of creatures are governed by God's providence. All Catholics must hold that as divinely revealed (cf. Vatican I). There are at least 6 major schools, however, on just how God's decrees are infallible and yet man's will free The Molinists (who you most resemble) say that the difference between sufficient grace (the mere potency to do a salutary act) and efficacious grace (which infallibly secures that the act is done and distinguishes the predestined from the reprobate) is the consent of the human will. To uphold, however, the infallibility of the divine will they posit a middle knowledge (scientia media) of God, by which he knows future contingent events. Congruists also hold to this view of liberty and grace but hold to absolute or unconditional predestination, saying that God, through His middle knowled he, apportions grace in the amount befitting certain individual considering all the aspects of the various circumstances...the orther 4 schools hold to a real difference between sufficient and efficacious grace and explain efficacious grace working infallibly on the will, which still acts freely, in various ways.

I recommend Fr. Lagrange's Predestination to get an overview (though it argues for the Thomist position).

To see how Thomism resembles but is different than Calvinism (which it predates) see Jimmy Akin's article "A Tiptoe Through Tulip"

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

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Just because God Knows which I do nto deny, as I also defend the Trinity Doctrine, so therefore I do believe that God is outside of space time therefore existing in all space and time, therefore knowing all ..... Does NOT mean that He interferes in our Free Will.... Yes does He know what we will do, and does He know that certain people will make that journey in such accord .... of course ....

This does not mean that He does anything to change it if they do not ....

This was and still is the requisite of understanding for Calvinism as opposed to us ... Somewhere along the line the Free Choice of our Will must be made to accept such Grace that is required to even attain Glory ....

All of us must make that Choice...

You show me where in the Catechism it says that the Choice is not necessary of even those predestined to Glory ....

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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BTW,
If both are excepted by the Church then why are you even countering me to begin with? Why not then state that it is simply another accepted position of the Church to believe this way in the first post as opposed to making me believe that you were correcting me?

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:59 pm 
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'Accepted', not 'excepted'. ('Excepted' puts a whole new meaning in there. :wink: :P )


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Student wrote:
'Accepted', not 'excepted'. ('Excepted' puts a whole new meaning in there. :wink: :P )
funny I wrote it out boh ways in my post so I was simply trying to point out that his exception to the fact that I stated something that is accepted is illogical.... OK so I made a typo ..... :P

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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MysticalRose,

Pro Ecclesia Dei is very passionate about predestination. It is something he has studied in depth and does try to instruct others on it when he can.

He can come off being strident sometimes when talking about certain subjects, but I can assure you he meant no offense in it.

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MysticalRose wrote:
BTW,
If both are excepted by the Church then why are you even countering me to begin with? Why not then state that it is simply another accepted position of the Church to believe this way in the first post as opposed to making me believe that you were correcting me?


My original post to you

Quote:
I willavoid quarelling, since you sound like a good Molinist and I am afraid that through your position is commonly held today, it is unrepresented on this board

That said, I and other Thomists hold that predestination is the cause of foreknowledge, not the other way around. God knows the future, because He knows His will, both active and permisive. And I can quote a slew of verses too... Wink


I assumed, wrongly, that since you were willing to instruct others on this you knew at least who Molinists and Thomistis are, considering that this debate is several hundred years old and was, until recently, one of the most debated things in theology. That said, no where in my post did I condemn what you said...I even, is assuming you were Molinist, said that was a good thing as no one represents them on the board. My next post was from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma and merly explained what the Church taught and the various opinions on predestination

The only post in which I corected you was later...and because you needed correction. Predestination to glory or heaven is infallible. That needs to be understood. I then proceeded to quickly hash out the various opinions of free will and grace.

No one denies free will here. The question is upholding both free will and the infallibility of efficacious grace. I do apologise for any misunderstanding, but understand that my assumption wasn't that you were dumb, but rather that you were familar with some of this already...thus I merely posted to make sure your position easn't being falsely presented as the Catholic position.

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Quote:
Predestination to glory or heaven is infallible. That needs to be understood.




I do not deny this in any form.

You are correct however, in understanding that I do not understand the difference between Molinists and Thornists. Although, I debate and do apologetics work against the theory of OSAS, and in favor of Faith and Works, and the Salvation Teachings of the Church, I do this in a much broader scope. Therefore, I only know the Teachings of the Church as far as Presdestination, as concerning this and mostly concerning convincing those that are predestined to Grace. With this showing and proving the Teachings of Sacred Scriptura to be true as well as the Church's position that both Faith and Works are needed. That we, as being only predestined to Grace alone have only the Hope of Salvation, as we are not Predestined to Glory.

That even in those that Are Predestined to Glory you will see that their works will magnify and Glorfy the Lord because of their predestination to Glory in the first place. Therefore again, with this logic the belief of some Calvinists that predestination is there no matter what is null and void and therefore illogical and therefore not biblical.

I will have to look further into the Molinists and the Thornists of which you now have me curious in. Please forgive my ignorance into something if I chose to put my two cents worth into a conversation. I am not used to being on sites with people that, for one, are allowed more openly to talk more freely about our Teachings, and for two with people that are more studied into such matters.

I, although baptized a Catholic when I was a child, was not raised one myself. I was actually raised a Jehovah's Witness. Then later I became a ToB Baptist, after leaving the Organization.... It was not until approximately 2 yrs ago that I came back to the Church and began to learn about the Teachings of the Church. So please understand that although, it has been said that I am a good apologist, it is only because I have the time, and because I have done a great deal of research, most of which was done to prove that Catholicism was even the Truth to me. It was then that I realized my error and then became more involved with the Teachings of the Church. For now, I am highly speacialized as to what I can debate and as to what I cannot debate effectively. I try to stay away from those issues of which I cannot debate effectively. Hence the opening to my post in here to begin with in which I stated that predestination and one's Salvation were interlinked with one another and knowing the differences.

I hope on my part as well no offense was taken, as I realize that sometimes I really should use more smilies in my postings, and I do not. This would denote that I am not being contentious when I am simply asking a question out of curiosity. I really did not mean to be offensive with my forthright nature, I am just forthright that is all. If at anytime it is offensive or you think that others may take it as such please do not hesitate to tell me about that as I will not take that offensively either. Sometimes in this area I am in need of correction if we all wish to make each other more effective.

Lovingly In Christ
Debi

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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bonaventure wrote:
MysticalRose,

Pro Ecclesia Dei is very passionate about predestination. It is something he has studied in depth and does try to instruct others on it when he can.

He can come off being strident sometimes when talking about certain subjects, but I can assure you he meant no offense in it.
I can actually perfectly understand this because when it comes to the subject matter of the Mother of Heaven, Mary, I am just as passionate .... So therefore no offense was taken on my part and as I have said I should have used some smilies to denote that I was simply asking something out of curiosity instead of coming across as accusatory... :)

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:14 pm 
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MysticalRose wrote:
bonaventure wrote:
MysticalRose,

Pro Ecclesia Dei is very passionate about predestination. It is something he has studied in depth and does try to instruct others on it when he can.

He can come off being strident sometimes when talking about certain subjects, but I can assure you he meant no offense in it.
I can actually perfectly understand this because when it comes to the subject matter of the Mother of Heaven, Mary, I am just as passionate .... So therefore no offense was taken on my part and as I have said I should have used some smilies to denote that I was simply asking something out of curiosity instead of coming across as accusatory... :)


Debi, I think that we are going to get along very well :) Welcome to the board.

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Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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Predestinarianism
Predestinarianism is a heresy not unfrequently met with in the course of the centuries which reduces the eternal salvation of the elect as well as the eternal damnation of the reprobate to one cause alone, namely to the sovereign will of God, and thereby excludes the free co-operation of man as a secondary factor in bringing about a happy or unhappy future in the life to come.

I. CHARACTER AND ORIGIN

The essence of this heretical predestinarianism may be expressed in these two fundamental propositions which bear to each other the relation of cause and effect:

the absolute will of God as the sole cause of the salvation or damnation of the individual, without regard to his merits or demerits;
as to the elect, it denies the freedom of the will under the influence of efficacious grace while it puts the reprobate under the necessity of committing sin in consequence of the absence of grace.
The system in its general outlines may thus be described: the question why some are saved while others are damned can only be answered by assuming an eternal, absolute, and unchangeable decree of God. The salvation of the elect and the damnation of the reprobate are simply the effect of an unconditional Divine decree. But if those who are predestined for eternal life are to attain this end with metaphysical necessity, and it is only such a necessity that can guarantee the actual accomplishment of the Divine will, God must give them during their lifetime efficacious graces of such a nature that the possibility of free resistance is systematically excluded, while, on the other hand, the will, under the influence of grace, is borne along without reluctance to do what is right and is forced to persevere in a course of righteousness to the hour of death. But from all eternity God has also made a decree not less absolute whereby he has positively predestined the non-elect to eternal torments. God can accomplish this design only by denying to the reprobate irresistibly efficacious graces and impelling their will to sin continually, thereby leading them slowly but surely to eternal damnation. As it is owing to the will of God alone that heaven is to be filled with saints, without any regard to their merits, so also it is owing to that same will of God that hell is to be filled with the reprobate, without any regard to their foreseen sins and demerits and with such only as God has eternally, positively, and absolutely destined for this sad lot. In any case sin is the most efficacious means of infallibly bringing to hell, with some appearance of justice, those who are positively destined for reprobation. In its further development Predestinarianism admits of a harsher and of a milder form according as its adherents by insisting exclusively on the salvific will of God push positive reprobation into the background or endeavour to hide under a pious phraseology what is most offensive in their doctrine, i. e. God's supposed relation towards sin. And yet this element forms the keystone of the whole system. For the all-important question is: Can God the all just absolutely and positively predestine anyone to hell? Can the all holy incite and force anyone to sin with the intention of consigning him to eternal damnation? The denial of the universality of the salvific will of God and the restriction of the merits of Christ's passion to the elect are only natural consequences of the fundamental principles of this heresy.
The history of dogma shows that the origin of heretical Predestinarianism must be traced back to the misunderstanding and misinterpretation of St. Augustine's views relating to eternal election and reprobation. But it was only after the death of this great doctor of the Church (430) that this heresy sprang up in the Church of the West, whilst that of the East was preserved in a remarkable manner from these extravagances. Beginning from the anonymous author of the second part of the so-called "Prædestinatus" (see below) up to Calvin, we find that all the adherents of this heresy have taken refuge behind the stout shield of Augustinism. The question therefore to be answered at present is this: Did St. Augustine teach this heresy? We do not wish to gainsay that St. Augustine in the last years of his life fell a victim to an increased rigorism which may find its psychological explanation in the fact that he was called to be the champion of Christian grace against the errors of Pelagianism and Semipelagianism. Still the point at issue is whether he, in order to establish the predestination of the just, gave up his former position and took refuge in the so-called "irresistible grace" (gratia irresistibilis) which in the just and in those who persevere destroys free will. Not only Protestant historians of dogma (as Harnack) but also a few Catholic scholars (Rottmanner, Kolb) even up to the present time have thought that they found in his works evident indications of such a strange view. But among most of the modern students of St. Augustine the conviction is constantly gaining ground that the African Doctor at no time of his life, not even shortly before his death, embraced this dangerous view of grace which Jansenism claims to have inherited from him. Even the Protestant writer E.F.K. Müller emphasizes the fact that St. Augustine, with regard to the liberty of the will in all conditions of life, "never renounced his repudiation of Manichæism, a step which had caused him so severe a struggle" (Realencyk. für prot. Theologie, Leipzig, 1904, XV, 590).

The only ambiguous passage containing the expressions "unavoidable and invincible" (De corrept. et gratia XII, xxxviii: indeclinabiliter et insuperabiliter) does not refer, as is clear from the context, to Divine grace but to the weak will which by means of grace is made invulnerable against all temptations, even to the point of being unconquerable, without, however, thereby losing its native freedom. Other difficult passages must likewise be explained in view of the general fundamental principles of the saint's teaching and especially of the context and the logical connexion of his thoughts (cf. J. Mausbach, "Die Ethik des hl. Augustinus", LI, 25 sq.; Freiburg, 1909). Hence St. Augustine, when towards the end of his life he wrote his "Retractations", did not take back anything in this matter, nor had he any reason for doing so. But as to God's relation to sin, nothing was further from the thoughts of the great doctor than the idea that the Most Holy could in any way or for any purpose force the human will to commit sin. It is true that God foresees sin, but He does not will it; for He must of necessity hate it. St. Augustine draws a sharp distinction between prœscire and prœdestinare, and to him the infallible foreknowledge of sin is by no means synonymous with a necessitating predestination to sin. Thus he says of the fall of Adam (De corrept. et gratia, 12, 37), "Deo quidem præsciente, quid esset Adam facturus injuste; præsciente tamen, non ad hoc cogente" (cf. Mausbach, ibid. 208 sq.). The question whether and in how far St. Augustine assumed, in connexion with the absolute predestination of the elect, what was later on known as the negative reprobation of the damned, is quite distinct from our present question and has nothing to do with heretical Predestinarianism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12376b.htm

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The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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II. THE WORK "PRÆDESTINATUS"

That the Pelagians after their condemnation by the Church had a great interest in exaggerating to their ultimate heretical consequences those ideas of St. Augustine which may easily be misunderstood, that thereby they might under the mask of orthodoxy be enabled to combat more effectually not only the ultra-Augustinian but also the whole Catholic doctrine on grace, is clearly proved by a work written by an anonymous author of the fifth century. This work, edited by Sirmond for the first time in 1643 in Paris under the title of "Prædestinatus" (P. L., LIII, 579 sq.), is divided into three parts. The first part contains a catalogue of ninety heresies (from Simon Magus to the Hœresis Prœdestinatorum) and is nothing less than a barefaced plagiarism from St. Augustine's work "De Hæresibus" and original only in those passages where the writer touches on personal experiences and Roman local traditions (cf. A. Faure, "Die Widerlegung der Häretiker im I. Buch des Prædestinatus", Leipzig, 1903). The second part is according to the assertion of the author of the work a treatise circulated (though falsely) under the name of St. Augustine which fell into his hands; this treatise, under the form of a violent polemic against the Pelagians, puts forward ultra-Augustinian views on predestination and thus affords a welcome opportunity to a Pelagian to attack both the one-sided exaggerations of the pseudo-Augustine and the Catholic doctrine on grace of the true St. Augustine. As a matter of fact this favourable opportunity is seized upon by the author in the third and last part, where he reveals his real purpose. Adhering closely to the text of the second part he subtlely endeavours to refute not only Predestinarianism but also (and this is the main point), St. Augustine's doctrine on grace, although for the sake of appearances and to protect himself from attack, Pelagianism is nominally condemned in four anathemata (P. L., LIII, 665). All the older literature concerning this inferior compilation may now be considered as superseded by the recent scholarly work of Schubert, "Der sog. Prædestinatus, ein Beitrag zur Geschichte des Pelagianismus" (Leipzig, 1903). We need not, however, entirely accede to the opinion of Schubert that the whole pseudo-Augustine produced in the second part is nothing but a clumsy forgery of the anonymous Pelagian author himself, who put up a straw man in order the more easily to overthrow him. But there can be no doubt as to the meaning, the spirit, and purpose of this manœuvre. We have to do with a skilful defence of Pelagianism against the doctrine on grace as taught by St. Augustine. And the authorship points rather to Rome than to southern Gaul (perhaps Arnobius the Younger). This work, written probably about A. D. 440, emanated from the group of Pelagians closely associated with Julian of Eclanum. It is not impossible that a friend of Julian living in Rome conceived the hope of making the pope more favourable to Pelagianism by means of this work.

III. LUCIDUS AND GOTTSCHALK

Toward the middle of the fifth century heretical Predestinarianism in its harshest form was defended by Lucidus, a priest of Gaul, about whose life in all other respects history is silent. According to his view God positively and absolutely predestined some to eternal death and others to eternal life, in such a manner that the latter have not to do anything to secure their eternal salvation, since Divine grace of itself carries them on to their destiny. As the non-elect are destined for hell, Christ did not die for them. When Faustus, Bishop of Riez, ordered Lucidus to retract, he abandoned his scandalous propositions and even notified the Provincial Synod of Arles (c. 473) of his submission (cf. Mansi, "Concil. Collect.", VII, 1010). It seems that within half a century the Predestinarian heresy had completely died out in Gaul, since the Second Synod of Orange (529), although it solemnly condemns this heresy, still speaks only hypothetically of its adherents; "si sunt, qui tantum malum credere velint" (cf. Denzinger, "Enchirid.", tenth ed., Freiburg, 1908, n. 200). The controversy was not renewed till the ninth century when Gottschalk of Orbais, appealing to St. Augustine, aroused a long and animated dispute on predestination, which affected the whole Frankish Empire. Rabanus Maurus (about 840) wrote a refutation of Gottschalk's teaching and clearly summed it up in the following proposition (P. L., CXII, 1530 sqq.): As the elect, predestined by the Divine foreknowledge and absolute decree, are saved of necessity, so in the same way the eternally reprobate become the victims of predestination to hell.

Through the efforts of Hincmar, Archbishop of Reims, the Synod of Quierzy (849) compelled Gottschalk, whose enforced stay in the Order of St. Benedict had cost him dearly, to burn his writings with his own hand, and silenced him by imprisoning him for life in the monastery of Hautvilliers near Reims. At the present time, however, scholars, because of two extant professions of faith (P. L., CXXI, 347 sq.), are inclined to free the eccentric and obscure Gottschalk from the charge of heresy, and to interpret in an orthodox sense his ambiguous teaching on "double predestination" (gemina prœdestinatio). It was an unhappy thought of Hincmar to ask the pantheistic John Scotus Eriugena to write a refutation of Gottschalk, as this only served to sharpen the controversy. To the great sorrow of Charles the Bald the whole western part of the Frankish Empire resounded with the disputes of bishops, theologians, and even of some synods. The Canons of the Provincial Synod of Valence (855) may be taken as an expression of the then prevailing views on this subject; they emphasize the fact that God has merely foreseen from eternity and not foreordained the sins of the reprobate, although it remains true that in consequence of their foreseen demerits he has decreed from eternity the eternal punishment of hell (cf. Denzinger, loc. cit., nn. 320-25). It was essentially on this basis that the bishops of fourteen ecclesiastical provinces finally came to an agreement and made peace in the Synod of Tousy held in 860 (cf. Schrörs, "Hinkmar von Reims", 66 sq., Freiburg, 1884). The teaching of the Middle Ages is generally characterized on the one hand by the repudiation of positive reprobation for hell and of predestination for sin, on the other by the assertion of Divine predestination of the elect for heaven and the co-operation of free will; this teaching was only for a short time obscured by Thomas Bradwardine, and the so-called precursors of the Reformation (Wyclif, Hus, Jerome of Prague, John Wesel).

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Image ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord Guideth me to the narrow path
that over time becomes even more narrow
that will mean that I will lose but also gain
Friends that once were will go
And I will be left alone
Only to find that my true friend
The Lord was always with me
And I had nothing to fear at all


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