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 Post subject: Continence and marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:11 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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In Tobit (well in the Vulgate Tobit, and one Hebrew text) we read that Tobit and his wife Sarah observed three nights of continence before consummating their marriage

In this line I have heard it was tradition for many Catholics to abstain their first night of marriage to give themselves over to prayer. A good tradition methinks. However, I stumbled upon something. I have heard it claimed that there Church once required a 3 night period of prayer and continence on behalf of newlyweds and that one had to give alms to be exempt from this.

1. Was there ever such a requiement in general? (note, there very well could have been such a tradition, at least in certain places but required?)

2. Was almsgiving taken in lieu of this?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:21 pm 
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Remember that Gideon was instructed to release all the soldiers who had been with their wives during the preceeding three days. In the Trent Catechism it mentions that three days of continence should proceed receiving the Eucharist. It then states that it is an admirable practice to receive the Eucharist daily. The implication in terms of continence should be obvious.

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“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Quote:
1. Was there ever such a requiement in general? (note, there very well could have been such a tradition, at least in certain places but required?)


I severely doubt it since consummation of the marriage effects it's validity.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:25 pm 
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mgross wrote:
Remember that Gideon was instructed to release all the soldiers who had been with their wives during the preceeding three days. In the Trent Catechism it mentions that three days of continence should proceed receiving the Eucharist. It then states that it is an admirable practice to receive the Eucharist daily. The implication in terms of continence should be obvious.

[joke]
That's been changed after Vatican II to one hour of continence before receiving Communion. No "quickies" in the church parking lot before you go in.
[/joke]


Edward Pothier


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 Post subject: Re: Continence and marriage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:30 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

In this line I have heard it was tradition for many Catholics to abstain their first night of marriage to give themselves over to prayer. A good tradition methinks. However, I stumbled upon something. I have heard it claimed that there Church once required a 3 night period of prayer and continence on behalf of newlyweds and that one had to give alms to be exempt from this.


Some anonymous wiseguy says: "I had to pay for sex before I was married. I'm certainly not going to pay for it after I'm married!"


Edward Pothier
(who will refrain from commenting on the "cost" of sex in marriage)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:31 pm 
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Quote:
I severely doubt it since consummation of the marriage effects it's validity.


No it doesn't. A valid, but unconsummated, marriage may be dissolved by the Church, while a valid and consummated marriage cannot. That is the only difference.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:38 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:

I severely doubt it since consummation of the marriage effects it's validity.



No it doesn't. A valid, but unconsummated, marriage may be dissolved by the Church, while a valid and consummated marriage cannot. That is the only difference.


Let me rephrase: Consummation of the marriage affects the marriage's validity. In the Medieval Ages, they made sure a prince and a princess would consummate so the deal would be set in stone.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:47 pm 
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SeanMc wrote:
Quote:
Quote:

I severely doubt it since consummation of the marriage effects it's validity.



No it doesn't. A valid, but unconsummated, marriage may be dissolved by the Church, while a valid and consummated marriage cannot. That is the only difference.


Let me rephrase: Consummation of the marriage affects the marriage's validity. In the Medieval Ages, they made sure a prince and a princess would consummate so the deal would be set in stone.

Again, it doesn't affect the validity but the completeness. The marriage is consummated by sex, not made valid.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:49 pm 
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mgross wrote:
Remember that Gideon was instructed to release all the soldiers who had been with their wives during the preceeding three days. In the Trent Catechism it mentions that three days of continence should proceed receiving the Eucharist. It then states that it is an admirable practice to receive the Eucharist daily. The implication in terms of continence should be obvious.

Of course the Catechism of Trent also says that, while that standard age for Confirmation and Communion (in that order) is 12, that 7 would be a more preferrable age. Took until St. Pius X to get that changed and we are still having to move Confirmation back to where it belongs...

One of those old moral theology books I have actually has a small section explaining why it is NOT a sin to have intercourse the night before communion, even if it may be a good spiritual practice for some.

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http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:43 pm 
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Found this under continence in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is specifically addressing priestly continence and the objection thereof. The article on Chastityis also of interest.

Quote:
A second objection rests upon considerations of the social good. It is contended that a state of continence means failure to discharge the social obligation of conserving the species. But such an obligation falls, not upon every member of the community, but upon society at large, and is amply discharged though there be individual exceptions. Indeed the non-fulfillment of this duty is never threatened by a too general observance of sexual abstinence. On the contrary it is only the unlawful gratification of carnal passion that can menace the due growth of population.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04330b.htm


That the desires of the flesh war against the soul is well attested in scripture and 95% of Catholic history. That this age is infatuated with sex is generally accepted. My bet goes to tradition for the truth of the matter.

_________________
"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:45 pm 
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Quote:
[joke]
That's been changed after Vatican II to one hour of continence before receiving Communion. No "quickies" in the church parking lot before you go in.
[/joke]

:swoon

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