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 Post subject: Do aborted babies go to heaven
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:29 pm 
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What happens to babies who are aborted in the womb? Do their souls go to heaven, or limbo, or where?

(I don't really understand what limbo is. Do those who go to limbo stay there for ever? Is it a good place to spend eternity?)

I know there has been a discussion about "unbaptised babies" on this board not so long ago, but I didn't pay enough attention. I don't want to start another whole debate about it (and this is not the forum for debate), so I just want a brief answer as to what the Church teaches about this. Are aborted babies in the same category as unbaptised babies who die? Do they go to heaven, or, if not, what?


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 Post subject: Re: Do aborted babies go to heaven
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:47 pm 
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torn wrote:
What happens to babies who are aborted in the womb? Do their souls go to heaven, or limbo, or where?


All who die in original sin only or mortal sin go to hell, but to different punishments.

Some speculate that aborted babies have baptism of blood (martyrdom), which means they would go to heaven. But this is speculation. I would want it to be true, but I do not see how abortion = martyrdom. There is also the other speculation with infants in general. Some think that God gives infants the use of reason to chooseforor against him, some think that the desire of the parents or Church can work for baptism of desire. There was even an idea that their suffering works as a quasi-sacrament.

But this has no ground in revelation, just speculation. We simply do not know. If they die without baptismal graces they go to Hell (more on this later). If with baptismal graces Heaven

There is no middle place.
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(I don't really understand what limbo is. Do those who go to limbo stay there for ever? Is it a good place to spend eternity?)



Limbo is dogma and speculation. It is dogma when we speak of the limbo of the fathers (the bosom of Abraham) where the just waited for Christ. Where He descended to when we say "He descended into hell". It is the "hem" of Hell... as we read in the gospel, Lazarus was able to see the rich man. But they were separated by a chasm. So they were both in Hell (separated from God), but only one underwent torment. This limbo was temporary, the souls of the just were destined for heaven.

Limbo as speculation refers to the limbo of the infants. This too is the hem of Hell. Unlike the limbo ofthe Fathers, it would be permanament. They can never see God in the face

Basically, they have original sin so they go to Hell. However, they have no actual sin so they cannot undergo phsyical torment (pain of the sense) So far we are still on dogma, a Catholic must assent. The speculative part says that futher they do not undergo any pain, even that of separation of God. Furthermore, because they can participate (especially after the resurrection) in a natural way with God they do have some level of natural bliss.

The other option is that of St. Augustine "they suffer the least of all", but they do suffer. This is only concerning those who die in original sin only. If God gives the sanctifying grace then they go to heaven, if they have actual sin they undergo torment.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:45 pm 
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God has made a way for us to get to heaven and as He is all Just, He would make a way for the aborted too. We just don't know what it is. But they have a chance and a choice. Just like we do. Best!motsfo

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:53 pm 
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Torn,

<<What happens to babies who are aborted in the womb? Do their souls go to heaven, or limbo, or where? >>

Limbo is theological speculation , it is not an official teaching of the Church.

The Church does not officially teach that aborted or unbaptized babies go to Hell.

This is what the Catechism says: #1261 "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be savwed, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."

All I know is that God is just and fair beyond what I can imagine. I confidently leave it to Him.

Peace,

Dorothy


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:04 pm 
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mots137 wrote:
God has made a way for us to get to heaven and as He is all Just, He would make a way for the aborted too. We just don't know what it is. But they have a chance and a choice. Just like we do. Best!motsfo

It would be wholly just for Him to have them go to Hell. Even if this was St. Augustine's version. One must deny God can save them, but they must also be afraid of presuming He will

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:05 pm 
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mots137 wrote:
God has made a way for us to get to heaven and as He is all Just, He would make a way for the aborted too. We just don't know what it is. But they have a chance and a choice. Just like we do. Best!motsfo

It would be wholly just for Him to have them go to Hell. Even if this was St. Augustine's version. One must deny God can save them, but they must also be afraid of presuming He will. What you say has no ground in doctrine, just (at best) pious opinion

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:14 pm 
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Dorothy wrote:

Limbo is theological speculation , it is not an official teaching of the Church.

The Church does not officially teach that aborted or unbaptized babies go to Hell.


It does teach dogmatically that

"The souls of those who die in mortal sin or original sin only descend immediately to Hell, but to different punishments and places" De Fide

Limbo has some backing in the magisterium. First there is the limbo of the Fathers, which is dogma. The limbo of the infants is what is (in some degree) speculation. Basically the dogmas are

1. Die in original sin, go to Hell

2. Die without actual sin, do not suffer sensual torments

3. Those who die in only original sin have a different punishment and place than the rest of the damned

Limbo of the infants builds on this in a direction of God's mercy. It states that they also suffer no pain of loss (pain of the damned) and that they experience natural bliss through a natural cooperation with God by their very existence. This is often forgotten by those who relegate limbo to the past... the only speculative elements are "softer" than the dogmatic ones

If limbo is false then we must say, with St. Augustine, that those who die in original sin only do indeed suffer pain in Hell.

The only way from abandoning these two options is to say that all infants are indeed baptised or receive baptismal graces. The only way to be justified that the Church knows is baptism, or so the Catechism says. One may speculate on a vicarious baptism of desire, or that God grants them reason (the thing here is that they would have baptism of desire or else be damned WITH mortal sin. It can be less merciful that even St. Augustine's teaching in that regard), or that aborted infants are martyrs... but there is no ground in revelation for that. The most heinious crime of abortion is that it denies baptism to the infants butchered... denying them the only way we know to not go to Hell.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:58 pm 
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This reminds me of something I had wanted to ask. I've been asked to help with my local youth group. At the last meeting we ended up in a discussion about how strictly to follow Church teaching...one of the other coordinators disgreed with strict adherence because she claims that Church teachings change over time. The example she gave was about this issue...She said that it used to be Church doctrine that if a baby died without being baptized, you needed to baptize him dead or he'd go to hell. I tried asking her where she got her info, when this was supposedly taught, and when it changed, but she knew nothing. So PED, while you're at it.... :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:06 pm 
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If God did not allow infants a path to salvation, He would not be the God of infants.

I am of the belief that God takes care of unbaptized infants is ways that are not revealed to us. However, we still have the obligation to baptize the infants of believers, for only as baptized can they partake in the life of the Church.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:09 pm 
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Theotokos wrote:
This reminds me of something I had wanted to ask. I've been asked to help with my local youth group. At the last meeting we ended up in a discussion about how strictly to follow Church teaching...one of the other coordinators disgreed with strict adherence because she claims that Church teachings change over time. The example she gave was about this issue...She said that it used to be Church doctrine that if a baby died without being baptized, you needed to baptize him dead or he'd go to hell. I tried asking her where she got her info, when this was supposedly taught, and when it changed, but she knew nothing. So PED, while you're at it.... :D


You can't baptize a dead person. If you don't know whether they are alive or dead, the proper formula is (If you are still alive, I baptize you..." if I remember correctly.

Raises an interesting question though: Person dies. Baptism is conducted under the above formula. CPR works. Was this person validly baptized or not?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:09 am 
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<<"The souls of those who die in mortal sin or original sin only descend immediately to Hell, but to different punishments and places" De Fide >>

PED,

Then why do we not see this in the Catechism which contains the doctrine of the Church?

And, if this is De Fide teaching, then shouldn't we be going around baptizing whenever and however we can to save the babies who are born to parents who would not baptize them?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:08 am 
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Dorothy wrote:
<<"The souls of those who die in mortal sin or original sin only descend immediately to Hell, but to different punishments and places" De Fide >>

PED,

Then why do we not see this in the Catechism which contains the doctrine of the Church?

And, if this is De Fide teaching, then shouldn't we be going around baptizing whenever and however we can to save the babies who are born to parents who would not baptize them?


The catechism doesn't contain every de fide statement made by the magisterium, nor does it cover every question of doctrine.

There is also baptism of desire and blood. The above quote only says those who die in mortal sin.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:25 am 
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Quote:
And, if this is De Fide teaching, then shouldn't we be going around baptizing whenever and however we can to save the babies who are born to parents who would not baptize them?


Excepting danger of death, we are not allowed to baptize children whose parents refuse them baptism because

i) this usurps the God-given authority of the parents. However negligent they may be, they are still the ones appointed by God to raise their children.

ii) baptism will draw the devil's attention to such children, who will have no protection of a Catholic upbringing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:38 am 
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Quote (Dorothy)

<<And, if this is De Fide teaching, then shouldn't we be going around baptizing whenever and however we can to save the babies who are born to parents who would not baptize them? >>

Seanie wrote:

<<Excepting danger of death, we are not allowed to baptize children whose parents refuse them baptism because >>

I understand what you are saying and agree with you, I worded my question that way to point out what I felt was confusing in the articulation that unbaptized babies go to Hell.

Peace,

Dorothy

i) this usurps the God-given authority of the parents. However negligent they may be, they are still the ones appointed by God to raise their children.

ii) baptism will draw the devil's attention to such children, who will have no protection of a Catholic upbringing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:42 am 
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Bonaventure wrote:

<<The catechism doesn't contain every de fide statement made by the magisterium, nor does it cover every question of doctrine.

There is also baptism of desire and blood. The above quote only says those who die in mortal sin.>>

OK. The reason I prefer the Catechism's explanation is because it seems that to go into too much detail can make for misunderstandings. To leave them to the mercy of God explains it best to me.

Peace,

Dorothy


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:51 am 
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Theotokos wrote:
one of the other coordinators disgreed with strict adherence because she claims that Church teachings change over time.

This is wrong. It's impossible for any change to occur in the fundamentals of the Church, and there are really only three changes in human eschatological history that Church knows of: 1) the fall of man; 2) the restoration by the sacrifice of Christ; and 3) the final judgment and restoration at the end of time.

The Church is holy and is one. There's no innovation in the Church by which it becomes something new and ceases to teach what it once taught.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:57 am 
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Dorothy wrote:
Bonaventure wrote:

<<The catechism doesn't contain every de fide statement made by the magisterium, nor does it cover every question of doctrine.

There is also baptism of desire and blood. The above quote only says those who die in mortal sin.>>

OK. The reason I prefer the Catechism's explanation is because it seems that to go into too much detail can make for misunderstandings. To leave them to the mercy of God explains it best to me.

Peace,

Dorothy


The Church disagrees. It has opened an inquiry into this very question. More to the point, the statement can be misleading in the Catechism if we forget that baptism is necessary for the salvation of every man.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:01 am 
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Thanks Caleb, I already know that and I was trying to get that across to her, but then she came up with this absurd baptizing dead babies things. Has anyone heard of this? I thought only Mormons baptize dead people or assign a proxy to baptize ::): That's just too weird for me...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:02 am 
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coolmk20x wrote:
If God did not allow infants a path to salvation, He would not be the God of infants.

I am of the belief that God takes care of unbaptized infants is ways that are not revealed to us. However, we still have the obligation to baptize the infants of believers, for only as baptized can they partake in the life of the Church.


What?! This has to be at least offensive to pious ears. Not the God of infants if He does not "allow a path"? This strikes of Pelagianism

It is not that God "allows a path"... rather He has fitted certain vessels for glory and others for wrath, fitted for destruction. Only God saves and it is not that He gives us a path that we may or may not take, it is that He is the author of our salvation.

Without baptismal graces there is no heaven. There cannot be any other way to Heaven. This idea "well it is just not revealed to us" is wrongheaded. God is all powerful, but He has also limited Himself to a certain order of operation. Baptism is necessary without exception for the salvation of every man (de fide).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:04 am 
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Theotokos wrote:
Thanks Caleb, I already know that and I was trying to get that across to her, but then she came up with this absurd baptizing dead babies things. Has anyone heard of this? I thought only Mormons baptize dead people or assign a proxy to baptize ::): That's just too weird for me...

She is mistaken of course. I have an old moral theology book (pre Vatican II) that says that you can only baptise them if they might be alive and then conditionally (if thou art alive, ego te baptizo...)

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