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 Post subject: Re: Why does it taste like wine?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:03 am 
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UIowastudent wrote:
This has always bugged me. I'm going to admit I take the Lutheran belief that the host and wine symbolize Christ’s body and blood.

not the lutheran belief...but it doesn't surprise me that you don't believe in the Real Presence, based on your viewpoints of many of things.... try spending time with our Lord, Truly Present in the Eucharist, and ask for our Lady's intercession to increase your faith, so that you will believe what the Church teaches


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:30 am 
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I'm going to admit I take the Lutheran belief that the host and wine symbolize Christ’s body and blood.


As faithfulservant said, that is not Luthers belief. He professed the actual and real presence of Christ. A miracle we accept, but do not attempt to explain. Luther dod not call it consubstatiation. That is false.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:55 am 
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CommonMan wrote:
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I'm going to admit I take the Lutheran belief that the host and wine symbolize Christ’s body and blood.


As faithfulservant said, that is not Luthers belief. He professed the actual and real presence of Christ. A miracle we accept, but do not attempt to explain. Luther dod not call it consubstatiation. That is false.


I don't know what Luther called it. But what Lutherans believe is appropriately called consubstantiation, and not transubstantiation.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:18 am 
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I don't wish to argue the point, but that is a misunderstanding. Luther did not call it anything. In fact, he specificaly denied the term consubstantiation ( I can provide a citation if needed, not at home right now to get it).


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it taste like wine?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:17 pm 
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UIowastudent wrote:
This has always bugged me. I'm going to admit I take the Lutheran belief that the host and wine symbolize Christ’s body and blood. My main reason for this is because I can taste the wine and it tastes like cheap wine. I've tasted blood more then a few times and it has one of those tastes you will never forget. The wine definitely doesn’t taste like blood. How does the church explain this fact?


Lutheran teaching is not now, nor has it ever been, that the bread and wine used in the celebration of the Eucharist is symbolic.

The teaching was and remains that of consubstantiation. That Christ is truly present "in, with and under" the elements of the Eucharist. That He is substantively present with the elements.

As for the taste of the wine - Catholic teaching of transubstantiation is that the substance has changed but the accidents (appearance, odor, texture and taste) of the elements remain.

If you're going to debate transubstantiation and you're going to use the Lutheran doctrine to do it, at least make sure you're actually stating Lutheran doctrine properly.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it taste like wine?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:26 pm 
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Carole wrote:
Lutheran teaching is not now, nor has it ever been, that the bread and wine used in the celebration of the Eucharist is symbolic.

The teaching was and remains that of consubstantiation. That Christ is truly present "in, with and under" the elements of the Eucharist. That He is substantively present with the elements.



That's the net effect of their belief, yes. However, Lutherans (and correct me, CM, if I'm wrong) do not phrase it in those terms. They prefer to view it as just a mystery, i.e. Christ is there, but we're not sure how and in what sense. If you think about it, consubstantation is the result of their belief, but they prefer not to think about it (or rather, they think it's unnecessary to think about it). To them, it's completely non-discursive.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:38 pm 
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...it isn't Transubstantiation either.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:46 pm 
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Luther's Large Catechism states...

""Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar?

Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink. And as we have said of Baptism that it is not simple water, so here also we say the Sacrament is bread and wine, but not mere bread and wine, such as are ordinarily served at the table, but bread and wine comprehended in, and connected with, the Word of God.""

In and under the bread and wine is the very definition of consubstantiation.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it taste like wine?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:45 pm 
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Max Majestic wrote:
Carole wrote:
Lutheran teaching is not now, nor has it ever been, that the bread and wine used in the celebration of the Eucharist is symbolic.

The teaching was and remains that of consubstantiation. That Christ is truly present "in, with and under" the elements of the Eucharist. That He is substantively present with the elements.



That's the net effect of their belief, yes. However, Lutherans (and correct me, CM, if I'm wrong) do not phrase it in those terms. They prefer to view it as just a mystery, i.e. Christ is there, but we're not sure how and in what sense. If you think about it, consubstantation is the result of their belief, but they prefer not to think about it (or rather, they think it's unnecessary to think about it). To them, it's completely non-discursive.


While it is true that Luther never used the word "consubstantiation" and it is not frequently used in catechesis the phrase "in, with and under" is most definitely used with great frequency to describe the doctrine and provide an understanding of the Eucharist as something significantly more profound that a mere symbol.

"In, with and under" is often used to underscore the doctrine of the Real Presence as contrasted to the purely symbolic meaning of most other Protestant groups.

The actual word "consubstantiation" is often used when illustrating the contrast between Catholic doctrine and Lutheran doctrine on the subject. It isn't the official definition but the "con" is used to contract the "trans" in referring to the substance of the Eucharist.

I find the assertion that Lutherans "think of it as a mystery" and nothing else or that they "prefer not to think about it" to be completely alien to my experiences as a youth and young adult in the Missouri Synod or as an adult in the ELCA. I was Lutheran for the first 34 years of my life. I've only been Catholic for 2.

ETA -

Additionally, the official stance of any one Lutheran Synod (and there are a lot of them) may be like that of the LCMS' "Lutherans reject such an attempt to explain the Real Presence and insist that we must adhere to the simple words of Christ and be content to believe them as a divine mystery beyond human comprehension or explanation."

The reality is that pastors and catechists are asked this question every day and their answers tend to very significantly from the "we must adhere to the simple words of Christ..." answer.

Also - While the official teaching of a Synod may be the "we just do" type of answer I have found that such an answer given to a group of people who are not Lutheran is less than satisfying and far from informative. Especially to those who insist that Lutherans believe that the Eucharist is just a symbol.

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Last edited by Carole on Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it taste like wine?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Carole wrote:

I find the assertion that Lutherans "think of it as a mystery" and nothing else or that they "prefer not to think about it" to be completely alien to my experiences as a youth and young adult in the Missouri Synod or as an adult in the ELCA. I was Lutheran for the first 34 years of my life. I've only been Catholic for 2.


My meaning was that they choose not to elaborate on it with the degree of philosophical vigor as has been done in Catholic thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it taste like wine?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:56 pm 
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Max Majestic wrote:
Carole wrote:

I find the assertion that Lutherans "think of it as a mystery" and nothing else or that they "prefer not to think about it" to be completely alien to my experiences as a youth and young adult in the Missouri Synod or as an adult in the ELCA. I was Lutheran for the first 34 years of my life. I've only been Catholic for 2.


My meaning was that they choose not to elaborate on it with the degree of philosophical vigor as has been done in Catholic thought.


I assume you mean officially? As in the Synods themselves?

Because the discussions about this over liturgically coloured Jell-O molds can get pretty esoteric and elaborate. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:58 pm 
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I think the aversion to "consubstantiation" as a term stems from the strong aversion of most of the Protestant leaders to scholastic theology. In scholastic terms, "consubstantiation" is the best way to describe what they seem to be saying, but if you reject the underlying structure, you reject the term.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:49 pm 
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There is no consubstantiation in Communion

"We poor sinners are not so mad as to believe that Christ’s body is in the bread in a manner as crude and visible as bread in a basket or wine in a cup." "We do however unhesitatingly believe that His body is there as his words “this is my body” say and indicate. "

"Christ is in the bread, He is the Bread. He is where the bread is or however they please to express the Real Presence. About words we have no desire to argue, if only the meaning is retained and what we eat in the Lord's Supper is not bread alone but the body and blood of Christ"

Max Majestic had it right. It's just what Christ said it is, it's just as Paul described it. The mystery will always remain beyond our ken and Luther was content with that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:19 pm 
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In the early days of the rerformation catholics and Lutherans were actually allies in the doctrine of the real presence. Luther would give a pass to transubstantiation and catholics would allow Luther to have his view. The main bone of contention was the sacrifice of the mass which Luther departed radically on.
Later on Luther got around to critisizing all things catholic and got around to knocking transubstantiation something he formely allowed to be held as a small difference all of a sudden it was big difference and then of course the catholic church made a sharp distinction in response to Luther's attack on transubstantiation.

The divide to me was exagerated during the reformation to the point it is sticking point to this very day. But here's my opinion and I am no theologian nor do I represent the church so this is not catholic teaching. But to me the Aquinas developed was the dominant thought of the midevil catholic church that has patristic origens that are ancient and can be seen in the early writings of Justin Matry but at one time Luther's views were a minority opinion that was allowed. Rememeber before the first eucharistic heresies about 1000 AD their were very little exact definitions of the communion meal not until Aquinas made a clear defitnion was their some sort of clear cut defintion. And I like Aquinas definition and accept it but I can see where Luther's view would have been allowed in the church at one time and if he hadn't attacked the church with such vengeance their could have been some compromise on that issue but never the sacrifice issue which from the beginning was a divide from Luther and the church.
To me the Orthodox church view of Jesus somehow being present in the bread and wine but they don't know how (mystery) and they won't get into the catholic or Lutheran debate or tell either they are right represents the thought of the church in the first milinium. This is how I think the church felt at one time when the debate was less dogmatic. I am sure I will upset Catholics and Lutherans with this observation but thats the way I see it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:56 pm 
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Luther was formerly a priest who was a teacher. I think he knew full well what the Eucharist is. Unfortunately, when he decided to divide up the loaf, he also caused the split that would eventually develop into the Calvinsit view, the Nicholas Stork view.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:11 pm 
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Luther was formerly a priest who was a teacher. I think he knew full well what the Eucharist is


Luther was always a priest. Luther did not forsee the split. For that matter, neither did Leo X. Perhaps if they did they might have taken measures to avoid it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:13 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
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Luther was formerly a priest who was a teacher. I think he knew full well what the Eucharist is


Luther was always a priest. Luther did not forsee the split. For that matter, neither did Leo X. Perhaps if they did they might have taken measures to avoid it.


Untold millions would concur to that as division hobbles down! We did not show vision!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:22 pm 
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"I would rather drink blood alone with the papists than wine alone with the Zwinglians"
Martin Luther

Luther thought the symbolic view of the Eucharist was so disdainable and anti-christian that he would make such a statement goes to show he had no idea where the Reformation was about to go. Your right catholic defender Luther had a lot of that situation to blame on himself as did the Popes who ignored the situation at the time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:09 pm 
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The Sacrament of Unity has become a symbol and a bitter issue for many. Jesus is who He always is, but the devil has been successful in clowding the truth! It will take an act of God to restore the vineyard to full unity!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:15 pm 
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Somehow I think the act of God is the Second Coming.
Look at the Orthodox we agree with them like 95 percent dogmatically yet no reunion something is really wrong there. We are in union with these brothers and sisters for one thousand years and then poof we don't need each other. Doesn't quite make much sense to me. The protestant situation is impossible to breach when no one speaks for them really and their views are so divergent that just as you agree with one protestant you will offend the other protestant. ANd the divide on the authority, tradition and the sacraments is just to wide for humans to overcome.

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