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 Post subject: Morals-Catholic VS EO
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:31 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Any real differences on the essential moral teachings of these two faiths? Especially on sexual sins and morals pertaining to ABC and NFP?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:38 am 
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Some differences, too many small things to list. Some Orthodox think that non-abortive contraception is fine if it is needed, the Moscow Patriarchate doesn't, etc (of course, most Catholics think contraception is fine too).


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:40 am 
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Thanks, Sean. Yes, I know most Catholics think contraception is fine. It's a gravely sad thing, though...it tears me apart. I am very happy they teach the opposite though :-D.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:19 am 
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In EO you may obtain a divorce up to three times.

Although there are some EO who say that contraception is licit, historically that has not been the teaching of the EO Church. When Paul VI promulgated Humanae Vitae, may Orthodox hierarchs praised the declaration. Do a search for the stepanos project for more info.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:47 am 
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what does "licit" mean in this context, and what do you mean by saying Paul VI promulgated Humanae Vitae?(sorry I'm still very new to all the Catholic phraseology and things like that)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:49 am 
licit- allowed

Humanae Viatae: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_ ... ae_en.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:52 am 
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Thanks Alyssa :)

God Bless

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:31 pm 
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Well...I don't know if this is official EO teaching, but my SIL is EO (Greek-Orthodox)and her cousin is a priest, who told her that IVF is fine because the purpose of marriage is having children and as long as only his sperm and her eggs were used (and only 2 embryos at a time 'created', so no freezing or selection) it was fine. I met the man and he seemed to have all the relevant EO texts to back up his claim... Also, she was allowed to use BCP for her PCOS according to her rite, as it was medicinal. Now...how much of this is 'official teaching' I don't know, but she did go to Nicosia to see another priest when she first did IVF and also went on a special pilgrimage to someplace in Greece with her grandmother, so it seemed all very legit...

Anna x


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:51 pm 
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PCOS?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:56 pm 
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One of the differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism is that Catholicism is more centrally organized. The autocephalous Churches of Orthodoxy (each major center of Orthodoxy being independent from the others) does not permit the sort of "central office" thinking that is common among Catholics, who have the Vatican to look to for guidance. Therefore, Catholicism tends to have an administrative aspect that can teach officially on cutting edge issues like IVF, whereas Orthodoxy tends to move more slowly by building consensus. Catholics are accustomed to frequent issuing of documents by Rome, or by regional conferences of bishops, or by the local bishop, in order to clarify Church teaching. There is no comparable issuing of documents on such a scale within Orthodoxy.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:13 pm 
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The idea of consensus, when it comes to serious moral issues especially, seems dangerous to me. It seems to allow way too much room for man's sinful selfish nature to effect their decisions. It seems to lend a great deal of credibility to moral relativism and "freedom of thought." IMHO, not to offend any readers, it seems to me that the majority rule deciding the answer to a moral question is just a more sophisticated way of conforming Christ's Church to you, as opposed to conforming yourself to Christ's Church. That's why I look so highly upon the guidance of the Magisterium. I've never heard of any moral teaching from the Church that left any kind of room for anything less than purity, holiness, and godliness. Everything they teach is based upon solid beautiful moral foundations. I believe God's Absolute Truth cannot be decided by a consensus of sinful people, and I DO believe that all teachings on faith and morals in the Catholic Church come directly from God, so then we don't have the chance of 10,000 out of 15,000 people in any given parish deciding that the use of ABC or condoms is ok in one city, and then another teaching in another city. That just doesn't seem like God's way to me. That's just me though. Sorry for the rambling :). I have a strange feeling this thread will end up getting moved due to this post....we shall see :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:14 pm 
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And what PCOS mean?

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 Post subject: Funny you should mention that
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:06 pm 
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To a defender of artificial birth control who is Eastern Orthodox

No Christian church before 1930 allowed it, even non-abortifacient forms of it.

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In EO you may obtain a divorce up to three times.


This needs explaining.

Civil divorce (granted only by a judge) isn't recognized by the Eastern Orthodox.

They have 'church divorces' granted by the church which in practice but not in theory are the same as annulments.

The theory seems tricky and hard to get one's head around - only the first marriage is sacramental and thus lasts always but for a few reasons (adultery, referring to the exception that Jesus referred to, and maybe abandonment as well) the Orthodox will grant a divorce and even allow the wronged party to remarry. (Traditionally this was so children from the first marriage wouldn't grow up without a stepfather or -mother and so a wronged wife wouldn't be left destitute without a husband.)

One might ask how that's different from adultery or concubinage.

But...

It's not a bone of contention between RC and EO!

Believe it or not.

I've been told that the Melkite Church kept the Orthodox discipline on the matter from 1724 (reunion with Rome) until the early 1900s.

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 Post subject: The leniency on ABC and divorce/remarriage is one of
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:23 pm 
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the reasons why I have rejected the Orthodox Church for myself and my family. I know for a fact that ABC is allowed within a marriage because an Orthodox priest told me as much when I met with him to discuss conversion. Additionally, the Orthodox Church does not allow three divorces - rather, it allows up to three marriages = two divorces. I don't know if this is "official" teaching but it's previlent enough to be as much and is characterized as such by every Orthodox priest I have ever met. Of course, the Catholic Church in the United States has allowed annulments to run rampant but that, of course, is not "official" Catholic Church teaching.

CW


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:33 pm 
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Additionally, the Orthodox Church does not allow three divorces - rather, it allows up to three marriages = two divorces. I don't know if this is "official" teaching but it's previlent enough to be as much and is characterized as such by every Orthodox priest I have ever met.


Yes, that's right - thanks. Should have read more carefully. I think this is in their canon law.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:56 pm 
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SeanMc wrote:
Some differences, too many small things to list. Some Orthodox think that non-abortive contraception is fine if it is needed, the Moscow Patriarchate doesn't, etc (of course, most Catholics think contraception is fine too).


The official line from the catholic hierarch is no contraception the official line from the Orthodox church depends on the individual hierarch.
The catholic teaching is consistent with apostolic tradition the Orthodox teaching that it depends on where in the world you whether it is a sin or not and it contradicts apostolic tradition.

Clearly most catholics in the good ol USA think contraception is ok but the catholic church is bigger than that. It is quite likely that majority of practicing catholics worldwide to not believe contraception is fine.

The majority of practicing catholic that are in dissent appear to be here in the USA suprise suprise. IN Europe the dissenter they just choose not practice while America has Catholic for a Free Choice? So they (Europeans) are not practicing catholics in dissent meanwhile where the majority of catholics practice their faith still in Latin America and Africa contraception is still frowned down upon in faithful catholic communites. As the western world spreads its disease of contraception and abortion to the developiong world I suppose this will change too but as of now I think you can't make the case that the majority of practicng catholic are in dissent regarding abortion. The United States makes up only 5 percent of catholics worldwise and only 2 percent of those regularly practice the faith so I have a hard time beleiveing that the 2 percent of catholics here should be the consensus of how catholics practice their faith worldwide we are richer and more dissenting and more hypocritical than any catholics in the world we made up the term cafeteria catholic for crying out loud. You should not judge catholic morality by the least moral catholic in the world ie American cafeteria catholics.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:19 pm 
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bigcatdaddy9791 wrote:
And what PCOS mean?


It's a medical condition involving the female organs. Polycistic Ovary Syndrome.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:26 pm 
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The young fogey wrote:
Quote:
Additionally, the Orthodox Church does not allow three divorces - rather, it allows up to three marriages = two divorces. I don't know if this is "official" teaching but it's previlent enough to be as much and is characterized as such by every Orthodox priest I have ever met.


Yes, that's right - thanks. Should have read more carefully. I think this is in their canon law.


No, I should have posted more carefully. Thank you both for correcting me.

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Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:28 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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I must admit I find the EO churches wildly confusing...no one patriarch seems to think the same, and my SIL just goes with whoever suits her own personal taste best, that's the impression I'm getting anyway...Yes, PCOS is basically the facts that she has cysts growing uncontrollably on her ovaries, she also has too much testosterone and the BCP is supposed to surpress the forming of new cysts and the making of too much testosterone. Her priest says it's fine, because of her medical condition.

Anna x


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