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 Post subject: Luther (a few thoughts),
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:17 pm 
This is in part a response to the thread:

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/view ... hp?t=34743

But I thought it most beneficial to post it in its own separate thread, instead of in a reply to the thread above, given that this issue is a reoccuring one in catholic circles.

I guess to start out, it might be helpful to say that if anyone is truly interested in knowing the "facts about Luther", it might be wise to get it straight from the horse's mouth ie his own writings (works, the lutheran catechism ect.). You can find them at Concordia Publishing House (a lutheran publishing house) in both book and cd form.

Secondly, I would like to personally remind everyone as someone who does in fact appreciate both Luther and the Roman Catholic Church, to remember that we do exist, and we read and participate on this board. Accusations toward Luther, and personal attacks toward his person, only further serves to alienate individuals such as myself from the Roman Catholic Church and only hurts your cause. To draw an analogy, it would be if I were to go on and on about the pope, saying, *the pope this...the pope that....* We have to remember that although they are no longer present with us here on earth (in the physical sense), God's people are very much alive, and I think it unwise to go after an individual who very well, for all the errors you may believe he has, may be standing before the throne of God in heaven. For whether or not he was in error on this point or that, he was a christian, something any fair minded individual who reads his actual works, can attest too. One should always be extremely cautious when basing one's knowledge of a person or group, on the opinions, and *research* of another. This runs both ways. For example, would any of you, recommend that I go to James White's site, to get info on Catholicism? No. The idea is absurd. I may go to his site, to inform myself as to his particular take and impression of Rome, but it would be silly for anyone to conclude Roman Catholics believe this and that, based upon the impression of James White. The point I'm trying to make, is that if you want to learn about anything, regardless of what or who it is, go to the source. If you want to know about Luther, go to Luther, if you want to know more about John Calvin, go to John Calvin. Basing one's opinion of Luther on roman catholic sources, as if its a give that a balanced view will win the day, is not in my opinion, realistic. And is nearly as bad, as individuals, who have practically canonized Luther and sanitized the Reformation, based on the opinions and work of his admirers.

I have no problem debating whether or not Luther got it right. If after reading Luther himself, you still disagree with his theology....fine. But when the issue degrades into flaming his person or motives, that's when I take a step back, and really begin to wonder if coming here, was such a good idea or if I really want to make any postive move toward perhaps converting to Rome. It's very hard to read posts such as the ones in the thread, I linked too. It hits a personal nerve, almost like if someone were to go after the Blessed Mother. There are many reasons why this is. But to give one, I have to wonder if in fact, these catholics in question, believe Luther is in hell, because surely they wouldn't be saying what they do, about a saint either in heaven or purgatory. And so, in that regard ...there is a real sense in which I deflect the comments made toward Luther to myself. In much the same way, that roman catholics still feel attacked when this or that protestant quips, *oh, I think you're a christian, but your church isn't *. Martin Luther lives on in the hearts of those who admire him and respect his work, and so its very hard not to take personal attacks on him or his motives, personally. Its as if a roman catholic were saying, *oh you're a christian, even though the *founder* of *your religion* was a fraud and is most likely in hell (rarely ever stated, but always implied)* . How is that any different from a protestant saying to a roman catholic, *you're a christian, but your church/pope/fill-in-the-blank is a fraud, and is hell-bound*? Because that's what it feels like. Not only is that not going to bring people to a greater awareness of Christ and his Church...but it's counter-productive to that goal .

It is not my intent to chastise, but merely to express my personal feelings on the matter, in the hopes that a more productive dialogue can be achieved.

(mods, I'm not really sure, this is the proper venue for this kind of post...my apologies if it is on the wrong forum).

cheryl


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:58 am 
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Quote:
One should always be extremely cautious when basing one's knowledge of a person or group, on the opinions, and *research* of another. This runs both ways. For example, would any of you, recommend that I go to James White's site, to get info on Catholicism? No. The idea is absurd. I may go to his site, to inform myself as to his particular take and impression of Rome, but it would be silly for anyone to conclude Roman Catholics believe this and that, based upon the impression of James White.



:clap: Truly, the voice of reason.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:37 am 
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If you want to know about Luther, go to Luther...


Many believe that by reading O'Hare or the pleonastic pages on a certain apologists web site (initials D.A.) they have read Luther.

The first step in reading Luther is to read his [url=http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html[//url]Small Catechism[/url]. If you find yourself in argeement with him, go tho the [url=http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html[//url]large version[/url]. Then, if you still agree and wonder why he left the Catholic church, read Oberman. If you don't agree with his catechism you are probably not going to agree with the Catholic church either.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:37 am 
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Martin Luther was a pertinacious heretic. What else should we think of him who mislead millions into the fires of hell?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:43 am 
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Martin Luther was a pertinacious heretic. What else should we think of him who mislead millions into the fires of hell?


Oh well Cheryl, your gentle plea to reason has been responded to. The gloves are off, welcome to DCF.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:47 am 
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No, sir, her appeal was to indifference and latitudinarianism, not to faith nor reason. Holy Catholic Church has condemned Luther and his heresies: to coddle a known heretic is to play with fire. Shall I rehabilitate Arius? Nestorious? No? Well then you have your answer. The young miss is welcome to lay down her pride and submit her intellect to truth, if not, then she too will suffer the price. I'm done playing nice little games with stiffnecked people. That's how it is my friend and that is a serious appeal to reason.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:52 am 
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Matthew;

Please answer the question presented at this post, thanks.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewtopic.php?t=35205&highlight=


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:54 am 
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You are not at liberty to define the catholic church anyway you please. Why should I even accept your premise?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:11 am 
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I don't know what you are asking. What premise?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:47 am 
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Cheryl, I see what you and CM are saying, but 2 things came to mind.

1) It simply isn't possible for 99% of the people you see on the internet to do serious study of everyone thats talked about online. I'm sure you guys have commented in them but have you done serious study of Aquinas, Augustine, JPII, Chrysostom; many more could be listed. I agree that the short critiques offered online are not always the best place to find out about someone....Luther or otherwise, but it really is unavoidable uless one is a theology professor. We are talking about Luther in this thread, but we could say the same things about any other person in the hostory of Christianity.

2)I think your post proves too much Cheryl. Your saying that we shouldn't rely on others for info on Luther and then you proceed to tell us about Luther. You posted a few paragraphs and CM said you had captured the essence of Luther's theology. Why should I listed to you and not say....some Catholic apologetics website?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:00 am 
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I looked into Luther several years ago, I went through my period of indecision not exactly sure of what I was going to do. I am convinced that Luther was and is a heretic. How can a person water it down? How can you make prostitution pretty? It's an ugly vile scene. There is no nice way to look at the murder of millions of innocent people. What Luther did was cause a separation that has led to the fostering of 40,000 step children. common man does not like that number, he prefers to call green black and black red. He is blinded by his love for sola scriptura. That in itself is a man made belief invented by Luther!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:17 am 
bonaventure wrote:
Cheryl, I see what you and CM are saying, but 2 things came to mind.

1) It simply isn't possible for 99% of the people you see on the internet to do serious study of everyone thats talked about online. I'm sure you guys have commented in them but have you done serious study of Aquinas, Augustine, JPII, Chrysostom; many more could be listed. I agree that the short critiques offered online are not always the best place to find out about someone....Luther or otherwise, but it really is unavoidable uless one is a theology professor. We are talking about Luther in this thread, but we could say the same things about any other person in the hostory of Christianity.



There are two thoughts that come to mind. Firstly, it is my goal as it should be everyone involved in these kinda debates to study as much about theology and the church fathers as possible. I don't condone ignorance. I understand that not everyone has that kinda time, but then they should not be involved in these kinda debates and voice their opinion about complicated religious matters they feel they have no time to research. Secondly, the difference is, is that I am not implying that either Aquinas or Augustine are arch-heretics....that's the difference. I wouldn't be saying anything about this, if it weren't for the continual flaming of Luther, his person and his motives.



Quote:
2)I think your post proves too much Cheryl. Your saying that we shouldn't rely on others for info on Luther and then you proceed to tell us about Luther. You posted a few paragraphs and CM said you had captured the essence of Luther's theology. Why should I listed to you and not say....some Catholic apologetics website?


No, what I am saying, is that you should be caution. Go to the source.....neither me or James White, or a catholic apologist should form your thoughts concerning Luther or any religious personality. I am not saying, *hey buddy, listen to me...and not these other folks* ---I am trying to encourage you all to have Luther form your opinions about...well....I don't know....LUTHER. I don't see how that is such difficult request. Secondly, the intent of my post was to relay to the catholics here, how incredibly hurtful it is to me personally and some of the *protestants* here, to hear this kinda stuff, and how completely counter-productive to your goal it is.

cheryl


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:28 am 
*The Pope was a pertinacious heretic. What else should we think of him who mislead millions into the fires of hell?*

I am not trying to exchange one hurtful comment for another....but I only wish to make you understand, what you are doing and how your comments are being received. This is not me condoning indifference, and to that sir, you have completely shown your ignorance on this matter. (no disrespect intended). I have spent a great portion of my time studying both Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism, and while I do not consider myself an expert on either, by any stretch of the imagination, I do assure you that I base my opinions on well-meaning research and source material....I do not condone indifference and latitudinarianism. Just the opposite in fact...actually.

I think this pretty much makes my decision, I will be leaving DCF shortly....commonman I will be replying to your thread and answering your pm before I go.

God's blessings,

cheryl

ps. Perhaps Matt, it might be wise to lay down your judgmentalism, before asking me to lay down my pride....I have just gotten here, and already you make judgments that no serious person can make about another without having spent a good time debating/engaging them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:51 pm 
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Cheryl,

I agree with you that an exchange of beliefs should be done without rancor. Sorry that you have experienced that here.

Peace,

Dorothy


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:36 pm 
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cheryl wrote:
*The Pope was a pertinacious heretic. What else should we think of him who mislead millions into the fires of hell?*

I am not trying to exchange one hurtful comment for another....but I only wish to make you understand, what you are doing and how your comments are being received. This is not me condoning indifference, and to that sir, you have completely shown your ignorance on this matter. (no disrespect intended). I have spent a great portion of my time studying both Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism, and while I do not consider myself an expert on either, by any stretch of the imagination, I do assure you that I base my opinions on well-meaning research and source material....I do not condone indifference and latitudinarianism. Just the opposite in fact...actually.

I think this pretty much makes my decision, I will be leaving DCF shortly....commonman I will be replying to your thread and answering your pm before I go.

God's blessings,

cheryl

ps. Perhaps Matt, it might be wise to lay down your judgmentalism, before asking me to lay down my pride....I have just gotten here, and already you make judgments that no serious person can make about another without having spent a good time debating/engaging them.


The Pope is His prime minister! He leads a billion to Christ through His Church. Luther abandoned the Church. Do you recognize James as part of the bible? If so, how do you feel about the fact that Luther rejected James calling it a "gospel of straw"? Is the Church correct in reaffirming James along with Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation. Not to mention parts of Daniel, Esther, and several other books from the Old Testament!

The peasents celebrated and burned the Papal Bull of Pope Julius III condemning Luther as a heretic in a massive bonfire. Luther trembled in fear because he was going against 1500 years of Christianity.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:19 pm 
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...how do you feel about the fact that Luther rejected James calling it a "gospel of straw"?


Do you know the entire context of the statement this quote is pulled from?

Do you know why he would have said that?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:32 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
Quote:
...how do you feel about the fact that Luther rejected James calling it a "gospel of straw"?


Do you know the entire context of the statement this quote is pulled from?

Do you know why he would have said that?


Does it matter?

Can I say Jesus is not God and not be accountable for saying it?

Luther took issue with James over faith alone. James was problematic for Luther and that is understandable. I'm not creating my own church or movement so I cannot relate to changing doctrines and the such. Luther may not have liked the current mentality the church was under at the time, OK, that's all well and good. But to bring about reform, you work within God's kingdom, not outside of it!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:50 pm 
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Does it matter?


It only matters if you are interested in the difference between facts and fiction, truth and lies, accuracy or error. Otherwise no, it does not matter a bit.

Quote:
James was problematic for Luther and that is understandable


If James was a problem why would he have left it in his bible translation? He is accused of removing other books, what's one more? No, that isn't why he said that. The reason lies in the entire quotation but it is always edited out so as to change the meaning of what he said.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:01 pm 
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I have read the enitre preface befoe so I beleive its a matter of interpretation of course. HEck catholics and protestants can't agree on the Bible how do you expect to agree on a preface written by Luther.
Luther also left 2 Maccabees in his translation so just because he left books in his translation of the Bible is irrelevant the relevancy is did Luther beleive James to be canonical?
I think you miss the point Luther thought James was uncanonical and did not preach the gospel (faith alone). James like 2 Maccabees was never taken out of Luther's transalation but like 2 Maccabees was never listed as canonical.
Luther's opinion was the James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation were not canonical but that he would leave it in his translation and you can read it and make up your own mind.
Which is rather puzzling stance to make that the individual and not the church had the aurthority to determine canonicity.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:57 pm 
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The "Epistle of straw" quote is an incomplete/truncated understanding of the entire passage.

But it seems I'm wasting my breath here, no one cares, or wants to know, what his entire point was.


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