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 Post subject: What's So Great About Catholicism by Harry Crocker
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:45 am 
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What's So Great About Catholicism from Crisis magazine.

The Inquisition is #9. The Crusades are #8. Which I'm sure should surprise some people.

Do any Catholics here disagree with this article?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:32 pm 
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The crusades were a defensive war against Muslim aggression, very similar to the one we are in now in several respects. The Inquisition eh.... I am more or less indifferent.

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 Post subject: Re: What's So Great About Catholicism by Harry Crocker
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:41 pm 
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Crusader X wrote:
What's So Great About Catholicism from Crisis magazine.

The Inquisition is #9. The Crusades are #8. Which I'm sure should surprise some people.

Do any Catholics here disagree with this article?


Do you think any Catholics here ought to disagree with this article and if so, why?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:51 pm 
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I agree with both.

The Inquisition was a proud moment for the Catholic Church. The tribunals the church set up set many precedents we can all be proud of, including the ideas that the accused is innocent until proven guilty, and that one cannot be found guilty on the basis of a single person's accusation.

The fact that accused Spaniards actively sought to be tried in the church's course rather than in the civil courts speaks volumes.


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 Post subject: Re: What's So Great About Catholicism by Harry Crocker
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:02 pm 
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Della wrote:
Crusader X wrote:
What's So Great About Catholicism from Crisis magazine.

The Inquisition is #9. The Crusades are #8. Which I'm sure should surprise some people.

Do any Catholics here disagree with this article?


Do you think any Catholics here ought to disagree with this article and if so, why?


No. I myself think Crocker is spot-on. But there are so many myths and misunderstandings about the above topics, that I simply expected the list to possibly surprise some folks.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:20 am 
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Considering the fruits of Islam hundreds of years later I am inclined to agree with Croker on the Crusades they were a defensive measure mostly and been maligned by protestant and atheitstic historians with an agenda western civilization would have fallen without them. Aside from the first they were not successful but the message was sent Christians were not just going to roll over to Militant Islam anymore after hundreds of years doing so and in the process lost Africa and the middle east to Chistendom.
Thus the remaining Chistendom remained even though we never regained the lost lands and ending up loosing part of Jerusalem to we won during the first Crusade.
Without the Crusades we would have no catholic churches in Israel today that all Christians even protestants visit as a Christian pilgramage in the footsteps of our Lord.
As for the Inquisition I would have to differ some severe abuses occured during the Spanish Inquisition and even the Popes at the time beleived Spain had gone to far. But the occurances have been exagerated and the Roman Inquisition was really a precurson to the American Judicial system it was the fairest judicial system until the advent of the American Constitiution and eventually Judiciary. So its a mixed bag for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:35 pm 
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Edited by Admin.

Don't worry about things you have no control over--such as history. It's not about what happened 500 years ago, it's what happens in the next 500 days. You shall be known by your works. The inquisitors for theirs, we for ours. Forgive. Do unto others and you would have them do unto you.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:51 pm 
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9/11 is just the crusades revisited. We are still at war with Islam.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:52 pm 
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anawim wrote:
9/11 is just the crusades revisited. We are still at war with Islam.


And I fear will be until the Second Coming.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:53 pm 
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Fish wrote:
Edited by Admin

Don't worry about things you have no control over--such as history. It's not about what happened 500 years ago, it's what happens in the next 500 days. You shall be known by your works. The inquisitors for theirs, we for ours. Forgive. Do unto others and you would have them do unto you.


Do they believe that the old Testament is the Word of God? Surely there were many corruptions throughout the Old Testament? Why aren't they responsible for Manasseh or Jeroboam?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:54 pm 
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bonaventure wrote:
Fish wrote:
I converted to Catholocism but my wife is Jewish. Her family beat me over the head with the Crusades and the Inquisition every chance they got and they have the facts and figures to do it in magnificent fashion. Rather than hear the litany at every family gathering I eventually adopted the attitude that if you have to go back 500 years to condemn me as an idividual, go for it. And then it stopped.

Don't worry about things you have no control over--such as history. It's not about what happened 500 years ago, it's what happens in the next 500 days. You shall be known by your works. The inquisitors for theirs, we for ours. Forgive. Do unto others and you would have them do unto you.


Do they believe that the old Testament is the Word of God? Surely there were many corruptions throughout the Old Testament? Why aren't they responsible for Manasseh or Jeroboam?


Or to more recent times, relatively speaking, to their persecution of the first Christians not only in Palestine but throughout the Roman Empire?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:54 pm 
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Crocker can take his defense of the Crusades a bit far. In his book Triumph, I recall him putting a very heavy gloss on the sack of Constantinople in the 4th Crusade.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:10 pm 
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Quote:
In his book Triumph, I recall him putting a very heavy gloss on the sack of Constantinople in the 4th Crusade.


Heavy gloss, saying that it should be a day of celebration, no biggie, right? :P


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:08 pm 
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Catholic Cadet wrote:
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In his book Triumph, I recall him putting a very heavy gloss on the sack of Constantinople in the 4th Crusade.


Heavy gloss, saying that it should be a day of celebration, no biggie, right? :P


I may be wrong, but I thought he was criticizing Eastern Christians who, in his view, are so fixated on the sack of Const. when east-west issues come up, that they treat it like a holiday of sorts because they now have something they can use against the west.


PLEASE NOTE: I'm not expressing agreement with Crocker here.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:19 pm 
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I'm a newbie so I'm sorry if the quotes didn't come out right.

Quote:
Do they believe that the old Testament is the Word of God? Surely there were many corruptions throughout the Old Testament? Why aren't they responsible for Manasseh or Jeroboam?

I suspect some would say something like "God told us to. See its in the Torah!" with some half-baked convoluted justification such as somebody's margin notes in somebody else's interpretation of episode based on a different translation than what made it into catholic scripture.

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Or to more recent times, relatively speaking, to their persecution of the first Christians not only in Palestine but throughout the Roman Empire?


If the New Testiment taught me anything is that its not a quid pro quo world. The early Christian persecutions should be forgiven and whatever evil happened during the Crusades and the Inquisition should be recognized but should be forgiven also. Everyone's forefathers have blood on their hands and if history were recorded perfectly, everyone would have justification for anything they did to anyone else and everything would be about vendetta. In the long run, forgiveness is an enormous advantage and we should all forget about ancient wrongs.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:47 pm 
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I may be wrong, but I thought he was criticizing Eastern Christians who, in his view, are so fixated on the sack of Const. when east-west issues come up, that they treat it like a holiday of sorts because they now have something they can use against the west.


No, he actually said that it ought to be celebrated in the West.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:51 pm 
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Catholic Cadet wrote:
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I may be wrong, but I thought he was criticizing Eastern Christians who, in his view, are so fixated on the sack of Const. when east-west issues come up, that they treat it like a holiday of sorts because they now have something they can use against the west.


No, he actually said that it ought to be celebrated in the West.



'Celebrated' doesn't sound like the right word, 'commerated' would be more appropriate. 'Celebrating' implies an expression of happiness, of joy. Surely, no one thinks that we should express happiness and joy at the destruction of Constantinople.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:18 pm 
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Catholic Cadet wrote:
Quote:
I may be wrong, but I thought he was criticizing Eastern Christians who, in his view, are so fixated on the sack of Const. when east-west issues come up, that they treat it like a holiday of sorts because they now have something they can use against the west.


No, he actually said that it ought to be celebrated in the West.


Wow thats weird.

I know he said what I had posted in an issue in the Latin Mass. I guess I just assumed he was talking about the same thing in his book.

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Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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