Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 2   [ 31 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:56 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 23303
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
resourcement wrote:
Then...

De Lubac! :)


Antihistamines can help with that.


a-choo :)

_________________
--BobCatholic
I'm praying for the souls in purgatory. Come, let's empty Purgatory with Jesus' help!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:33 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Ohio, originally from Portland Oregon/SW Washington
HalJordan wrote:
What's a Hahn-Head? Is he viewed with some skepticism? My only experience with his stuff has been from some appearances on EWTN, but it seemed orthodox to me.


A "Hahn Head":

Somebody who explains all aspects of the faith through the unique form of "Salvation history, biblical theology" that Hahn espouses.

Hahnisms: "Family Covenant of God", "Sacred Family Bond", etc...

A "Hahnism" and a "Hahnhead" is easy to identify.

:)

_________________
J. Nickelsen

Visit my Website: http://nouvelletheologie.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:22 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:15 am
Posts: 4882
Religion: Catholic
Hmmmm

Does this mean that he is to be avoided? I am unfamiliar with the methods you're talking about. Is he of questionable orthodoxy?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:20 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82127
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
HalJordan wrote:
Does this mean that he is to be avoided? I am unfamiliar with the methods you're talking about. Is he of questionable orthodoxy?


No, but his enthusiasm for his approach (covenant, covenant, covenant) sometimes leads him to neglect useful insights from other approaches.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:38 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Ohio, originally from Portland Oregon/SW Washington
HalJordan wrote:
Hmmmm

Does this mean that he is to be avoided? I am unfamiliar with the methods you're talking about. Is he of questionable orthodoxy?


Of course not...

:scratch:

Hahn espouses a "Style" that has made him an effective apologist, and evangelist.

Some like his approach, and other's do not.

Personally, I don't like reading his books for many reasons, not to mention his "style", as I noted above. Of the many different things I could say, I don't like reading his books because almost everything I read is research oriented, and it is hard for me to find much value in a book that completely lacks proper documentation. Since I know him and his family, I would add that this is mostly the initiative of his publisher. Since "footnotes" and "lengthy bibliographies" turn off the "average reader", combined with the fact that Hahn is enthrowned as the one who has reached out to the "average reader" the most, they don't want to impede sales.

Since I know my interests are in a very small "minority", I am sure to not be affecting the "take home" he and his family gets from the sales of these books.

His doctoral dissertation, which is going to be published soon, is excellent and more to my interest.

I would note, as well, that he has been contracted to write 2-3 "scholarly" works in the next 2-3 years...

I am interested to see how the "Hahn Heads" take a "Hahn Headache". :)

We shall see...

In the mean time, I would suggest his work as sort of middle ground between apologetic and scholarly work, so it serves as a good suggestion for your father.

I would also like to add one more point: the work he writes (the LEVEL he writes at) doesn't reflect the abilities he has as a thinker. He definately tones his stuff down for the reasons I mentioned above. He is very intelligent, and I look forward, very much, to the publication of more academic work on his part. This has begun, in a sense, with an article that he has had published in Catholic Biblical Quarterly. Check it out...

Justin

_________________
J. Nickelsen

Visit my Website: http://nouvelletheologie.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:59 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Ohio, originally from Portland Oregon/SW Washington
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
HalJordan wrote:
Does this mean that he is to be avoided? I am unfamiliar with the methods you're talking about. Is he of questionable orthodoxy?


No, but his enthusiasm for his approach (covenant, covenant, covenant) sometimes leads him to neglect useful insights from other approaches.


Agreed.

He is slightly critical of those who don't approach theology with the first principles he does, or the "way" he does... I think in a "Hahn world", everyone would be a "Biblical Theologian". I would be careful to note, lest some misunderstand me, that Scripture is, rightly, a first principle of theology, but your "approach" to the principle, and your use of it throughout your work can be very different.

In his book, Scripture Matters, he is very critical of the resourcement theologians for being the counter weight to the strong historical critical biblical scholars in the early half of hte 1900's.

Quote:
At midcentury, in Europe, came a revival of spiritual exegesis. The nouvell theologie... encouraged a return to patristic sources. Theis new theology found expression in the work of [de lubac, balthasar, danielou, congar, bouyer]. These men practiced spiritual exegesis as a truly critical science and spiritual art. Their movement of resourcement...was canonized to a certain extent by the documents of Vatican II, which repeadedly quote the Fathers as authorities.

Though I hesitate to look this gift horse in the mounth, I must admit that I often find the nouvell theologie wanting in exegetical teeth. In all the great works of these great men, what is consistently missing is biblical scholarship that reaches the same heights as their insight into the mystical interpretations of the past. Perhaps the academy was not ready for such work; perhaps the entire project of the nouvell theologie would have stalled in the gate if these upstarts had challenged the historical critical establishment.

Whatever the circumstances, the end results were excellent, though incomplete. Still, th eirs was no small deficiency. Saint Thomas Aquinas writes that "all senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal." Hugh of St. Victor insisted that [the literal sense is foundational]. Without adaquate attention to the literal-histircal sense, spiritual exegesis is built on shifting sand. Unless it is set down on the concrete historical reality of the Incarnation, spiritual exegesis can easily shift into esoteric fancies.


He goes on, but reader can get the book if they wish.

Of the many things I could say here, I will say just a few short notes:



Respect for Divergence in Approach and Proper Plurality: In my opinion, this is an example of what I mentioned above in passing--in a "Hahn world" everyone would do theology the same as he does. The mission that the resourcement theologians were carrying out often times had little to do with the subject of Scripture, but when it did come out, with some more than others, it was strong, and I believe it to be a healthy balance between the Antiochean and Alexandrian schools. But more, there is a beauty, that reflects the universality of the Church, in having multiple schools of study out there that are all aiding the Church through their respective disciplines in theology. Dr. Hahn does a great service in what HE does, and de Lubac did a great service in what HE did. Both were and are needed. I think Dr. Hahn simply lacks an appreciation for the respective mission that the resourcement theologians were after, which, in simplistic terms, was a resurgence in Patristic AND Scriptural scholarship. Their appreciation for Patristics is what gave them, some might say, a saturated use of Spiritual exegesis, because most of the Fathers of the Church read scripture and theologized upon it from that perspective.

_________________
J. Nickelsen

Visit my Website: http://nouvelletheologie.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:04 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82127
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I don't particularly have a problem with his Bible-first approach; I think there's a Ratzinger quote to the effect that all good theology is essentially exegesis. My point is rather that Dr. Hahn sees "covenant" as the key to understanding the Bible (at least in his popular works; perhaps that's the publisher's influence again). I am suspicious of anything whatsoever that is the key to such a complex and critical thing as God's written revelation of Himself.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:10 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Ohio, originally from Portland Oregon/SW Washington
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't particularly have a problem with his Bible-first approach; I think there's a Ratzinger quote to the effect that all good theology is essentially exegesis. My point is rather that Dr. Hahn sees "covenant" as the key to understanding the Bible (at least in his popular works; perhaps that's the publisher's influence again). I am suspicious of anything whatsoever that is the key to such a complex and critical thing as God's written revelation of Himself.


Well, I agree that the bible is the first principle of theology, but HOW it is used is where I was trying to get.

I agree with what you said...

Yes, "Covenant", the key.

Every good theology approaches with "the key" or "a key" though, but it is THAT VERY THING I appreciate. Is one better than the other? Probably, but I am greatful for the different "keys" because the turn of each key opens the door of truth from a different angle, and in many cases riches are found.

_________________
J. Nickelsen

Visit my Website: http://nouvelletheologie.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:56 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:33 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Around Pittsburgh
I don't know if I qualify as a Hahn head, but I can agree with your comment that Scott sees everything Biblical through the Covanent and Covanent Theology.
Not that that is a bad thing ... It lead him to the Church and he has in turn lead many more to the Church, so in that case God bless him.
I would love to take a college course by him because his enthusianism is contageous plus It is nice that Catholicism encompasses such a broad and wonderful spectrum of Orthodox Theology.

_________________
Disagreement and error among men on moral and religious matters have always been a cause of profound sorrow to all good men, but above all to the true and loyal sons of the Church, especially today, when we see the principles of Christian culture being attacked on all sides. -Pope Pius XII


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:04 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Ohio, originally from Portland Oregon/SW Washington
mike m wrote:
I don't know if I qualify as a Hahn head, but I can agree with your comment that Scott sees everything Biblical through the Covanent and Covanent Theology.
Not that that is a bad thing ... It lead him to the Church and he has in turn lead many more to the Church, so in that case God bless him.
I would love to take a college course by him because his enthusianism is contageous plus It is nice that Catholicism encompasses such a broad and wonderful spectrum of Orthodox Theology.


When I was attending the University he was my advisor and I had the opportunity to take one class from him--I didn't want to take too many... you know, I didn't want to become a Hahn Head :).

Honestly, though, his classes are overfilled and dynamic. He turly engages the students, brings them to the text, and gets them excited about it. Further, as I noted, what he does in his books reflects little of what he really can do. His courses are excellent; his knowledge vast.

I may disagree with him every now and then, but the blessings he has brought to the Church are slightly less than countless.

When I went through my own conversion, his work had a great hand it in. Never would I have thought back then that I would have taken a class by him; have the opportunity to be very good friends with his eldest son; and even, as we speak, work on his new house, which will be the new St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology--we are making all of the shelves (80,000 book capacity) and remodeling the area, which will be a library for people to use his own books, which is quite a collection (currently over 55,000 titles).

Peace,

Justin

_________________
J. Nickelsen

Visit my Website: http://nouvelletheologie.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:07 pm 
Offline
**********
**********
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:58 am
Posts: 2969
Sometimes the gretest church apologists are its great theologians.
Augustine and Aquinas come to mind.
Sheed and Kreeft aslo overlap as apolgists and thelogians.
The division is not clear cut for many catholic apolgist/theolgians.

A lot of the catholic apologist out there just deal with out differences between protestant christians and their is more of an argumenttation of Bible verses than deep theology so if your tired of that you can move on to the theologians I mentioned who will also keep you on your toes as an apologists.

_________________
" They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]). Ignatius of Antioch


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 2   [ 31 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Jump to: