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 Post subject: Evil--What is it?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:42 pm 
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Those who've studied philosophy and know (for example) St. Augustine's answer, please hold off for a bit. For those who've never thought about the question before:

What is evil? I'm not looking for examples here--I want a working definition.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:46 pm 
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well chocolate eclairs can be evil.... :mrgreen:
evil is not wanting God

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:55 pm 
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mots137 wrote:
well chocolate eclairs can be evil.... :mrgreen:
evil is not wanting God

Is that really what it IS or rather an example?

Can only an act of the will (such as wanting) be called evil? Or do we not speak of other evil acts and evils committed by the intellect? Do we not speak of evil things and evil actions?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:05 pm 
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but in all evil actions and things there is a turning away from God
.
.
.

gotta go to Mass, be back later...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:24 pm 
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Evil is anything outside of God's righteousness and holiness- anything outside His will.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:27 pm 
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Evil is the absence of love.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:29 pm 
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mots137 wrote:
but in all evil actions and things there is a turning away from God
.


No there isn't. How can a thing or an action turn away from God? You might say that in evil there is a turning away from God... but that does not mean that evil IS the turning away from God, except in some loose sense of the word is. The question was not from whence evil derives or what goes with it, but what IS it

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:30 pm 
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mots137 wrote:
but in all evil actions and things there is a turning away from God
.


No there isn't. How can a thing or an action turn away from God? You might say that in evil there is a turning away from God... but that does not mean that evil IS the turning away from God, except in some loose sense of the word is. The question was not from whence evil derives or what goes with it, but what IS it

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:32 pm 
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walking4faith wrote:
Evil is anything outside of God's righteousness and holiness- anything outside His will.


While it is true that all (morally) evil actions are outside His positive will, is what WHAT it is? You are describing an accidental (inspearable though it may be) quality of evil.... I guess ask yourself, why does it not proceed from His will? Did He not create all things? Is He not the prime mover of all acts? Does His providence not govern even the free will of creatures? What is evil so that it does not fall as having to have proceeded from God?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:33 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Evil is the absence of love.


What is love?

I love playing the devil's adovocate

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 Post subject: Re: Evil--What is it?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:42 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:

What is evil?


:popcorn

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:42 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
What is love?


God.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:46 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
walking4faith wrote:
Evil is anything outside of God's righteousness and holiness- anything outside His will.


While it is true that all (morally) evil actions are outside His positive will, is what WHAT it is? You are describing an accidental (inspearable though it may be) quality of evil.... I guess ask yourself, why does it not proceed from His will? Did He not create all things? Is He not the prime mover of all acts? Does His providence not govern even the free will of creatures? What is evil so that it does not fall as having to have proceeded from God?


Speaking from Adam and Eve's perspective, evil was allowed to happen because of free will. We had the choice to follow God's will or to "be like God and know for ourselves". Evil proceeds from free choice and temptation. God gave us free choice so we wouldn't be robots loving Him. Satan introduced the temptation.

I still say evil is anything outside God's righteousness and holiness. He defines what that is- He told Adam and Eve only one rule. They knew it would be outside His righteous will.

Interesting when we are being sanctified, the Holy Spirit works on us, helping us to constantly put to death the misdeeds of the flesh, and to become more and more like Christ. It's His righteousness (via the Holy Spirit living inside us) that helps us want righteousness. You would think Adam and Eve would have been very righteous and had no desire to be outside His will. They just had never been, nor seen consequences because of that. And, they did not have the advantage we have of having the Holy Spirit living inside them, helping them. It's almost like God knew the human race would have to go through this to "get" that they really wanted to stay within His righteousness for all eternity, of their own free will. When you see the knowledge of evil, you love and appreciate God even more for His holiness and perfection of goodness.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:50 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
What is love?


God.

But God is also Justice. Indeed He is what He has. If I askeed you to define Justice you would not say, "God" now would you?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:54 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
anawim wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
What is love?


God.

But God is also Justice. Indeed He is what He has. If I askeed you to define Justice you would not say, "God" now would you?


This is a philosophical question, not a theological one, but yes, since God is all perfect, than He would also be all just.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:55 pm 
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walking4faith wrote:

Speaking from Adam and Eve's perspective, evil was allowed to happen because of free will. We had the choice to follow God's will or to "be like God and know for ourselves". Evil proceeds from free choice and temptation. God gave us free choice so we wouldn't be robots loving Him. Satan introduced the temptation.

Or rather, are not the Blessed more free than us and yet unable to sin?

Freedom is realised only with God. Sin is slavery
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I still say evil is anything outside God's righteousness and holiness. He defines what that is- He told Adam and Eve only one rule. They knew it would be outside His righteous will.



And yet you still define a quality of evil, not the WHAT IT IS.

Listen, God immediately cooperates with every positive (here not meaning the generic meaning, but the striicter one) action of His creatures. We live, move and have our being in Him. Everything, even our free acts, are subject to His will.

There is something about (moral) evil that makes it outside of the realm of God's will. You have yet to answer that

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:57 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
anawim wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
What is love?


God.

But God is also Justice. Indeed He is what He has. If I askeed you to define Justice you would not say, "God" now would you?


This is a philosophical question, not a theological one, but yes, since God is all perfect, than He would also be all just.


No. It is a theological one

God IS Charity

God IS Justice.

Not that God is just simply, but He is Justice. God IS what He has and all of these attributes are one and the same in God. They are only different to us. So it would be incorrect to say Love IS God... for it is mixing up a finite manifestation of God with God Himself.

God IS Love, but Love is not God.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:25 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
No. It is a theological one


Obi Wan said, "for those who have studied philosophy....". Therefore, I'm approaching this from a philosophical angle, not the study of logic.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:44 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Freedom is realised only with God. Sin is slavery


Agreed!

Quote:
Quote:
I still say evil is anything outside God's righteousness and holiness. He defines what that is- He told Adam and Eve only one rule. They knew it would be outside His righteous will.



And yet you still define a quality of evil, not the WHAT IT IS.

Listen, God immediately cooperates with every positive (here not meaning the generic meaning, but the striicter one) action of His creatures. We live, move and have our being in Him. Everything, even our free acts, are subject to His will.

There is something about (moral) evil that makes it outside of the realm of God's will. You have yet to answer that


Evil seems to be tied to putting self first. Just like the definition of love includes caring about others more than self. So, I'd think focus on self comes into the equation somehow. That's what happened to Satan- his pride.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:52 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
What is love?



Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

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