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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:38 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
The "Epistle of straw" quote is an incomplete/truncated understanding of the entire passage.

But it seems I'm wasting my breath here, no one cares, or wants to know, what his entire point was.


Knowing Luther, he might of had a certain nun in mind. You know he had to have spent some quality time at the convent to have found one to marry!

Luther had issues with the book and he didn't want it in his 1534 version of his bible. He also doctored up Roman 3!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:47 pm 
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CD, I am dissapointed in you.

Instead of actually trying to discuss observations I presented in my initial post you resort to dumb jokes and just repeating the same old lines and legends.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:31 am 
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Common Man I think such a discussion on this matter is utterly fruitless because Luther used a subjective manner to judge canonicity he rated books if they preached or proclaimed Christ and of course if they preached faith alone in Christ these books were rated highly by Luther if they did not emphasize faith alone in Chirist but were pastoral books about Christian living which is what James and Hebrews and Jude certainly were then taught they did not preach Christ. This is entirely subjective. Remeber this later Lutherans added the books Luther did not include in his canon to match the Roman canon they did not leave it as an open question in doubt for Lutherans rather these books were accepted without question by Later Lutheran bodies and the complete canon by Lutheran churches is the 27 catholic canon that was canonized by the catholic church not by a subjective standard as Luther but rather in an ecunemical format. I know you will steer this into another question that have nothing to do with the subject matter at hand. Please don't thats how these things turn into circles without end. Stay on point and if you can't end the thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:54 pm 
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there is an online collection of Luther's writings at a protstant site (Project Wittenberg ) - just google it and you can access to his stuff.

I enjoyed reading his letters and other writings, I have The Large Catechism of Martin Luther which I have read.
However not growing up in the times that Luther did but in this Century - the reforms that Luther was trying to make now seem to make little sense to me.
Does the Lutheran church today actually follow the writings and Scriptural interpretation of Martin Luther to this day faithfully?

And do all these Lutheran Churches believe in the same Dogmas and Doctrines?

American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church (Mexico)
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church (Russia)
Confessional Lutheran Church (Latvia)
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Finland)
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (U.S.)
Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden)
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
International Lutheran Council
China Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia
Evangelical Lutheran Church—Synod of France and Belgium
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Argentina
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Church of England
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Haiti
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Paraguay
Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Republic of Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Denmark
Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod in South Africa
Gutnius Lutheran Church
Independent Evangelical—Lutheran Church
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church
Lanka Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church - Canada
Lutheran Church—Hong Kong Synod
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Lutheran Church in Korea
Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Lutheran Church in the Philippines
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Lutheran Church of Guatemala
Lutheran Church of Nigeria
Lutheran Church of Venezuela
Lutheran Synod of Mexico
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church of New Zealand
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Slovak Evangelical Lutheran Church
Lutheran World Federation
Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras
Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark)
Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland)
Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway)
Church of Sweden
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Guyana
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Russia and Other States
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Suriname
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Venezuela
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Colombia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Church of France
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Evangelical Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church in Chile
Lutheran Church in Great Britain
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Lutheran Costarican Church
Mexican Lutheran Church
Nicaraguan Lutheran Church of Faith and Hope
Salvadoran Lutheran Synod
United Evangelical Lutheran Church (Argentina)


I have never heard of all of these Churches getting together to decide and Doctrinal issues. Do they have councils or other meetings or have they all gone their separate way?

I'd love to hear back on Lutheran church doctrines concerning modern day problems such as gay marriage, atheism, abortion, stem cell research. And could you tell us which of these Churches I have listed above would not have met luther's version of what he had in mind in regards to a reformed Catholic Church.

C.M. I know this is a lot to ask but for a change I wanted to hear from a committed Lutheran on the above questions. All the debates seem to be about Luthers "works" or writings if you will. I wanted to have a real Lutheran explain from an modern day Lutheran perspective. the above questions.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:50 pm 
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No, they have little or no connection! Sorry commonman, I had a twenty hour drive and so I was hasty I admit, but I couldn't resist. God bless, We will get back on it tomorrow!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:14 pm 
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I have never heard of all of these Churches getting together to decide and Doctrinal issues. Do they have councils or other meetings or have they all gone their separate way?


If these Churches all subscribe to the Book of Concord they are (at least they are expected to be) "on the same page" insofar as the correct teaching of Scripture is concerned.

Within the USA there are Lutheran Churches with ordained women (ELCA) and those who will not ordain women (MS, WELS). That is a major divide. The fact that the ELCA is considering how to address the demand (from some members) to allow for the ordination of gays will also cause divisions. The Book of Concord does not address these issues directly because at the time it was written, these issues did not exist. So it is possible for churches to be considered Lutheran yet have these very different opinions.

I belong to the ELCA more or less because of geography. Our church would likely not call a woman or gay (or both) pastor. Ours is a conservative church within a more liberal ELCA.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:54 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
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I have never heard of all of these Churches getting together to decide and Doctrinal issues. Do they have councils or other meetings or have they all gone their separate way?


If these Churches all subscribe to the Book of Concord they are (at least they are expected to be) "on the same page" insofar as the correct teaching of Scripture is concerned.


...and all churches that subscribe to the Bible should at least be on the same page too, yet they aren't.

Quote:
Within the USA there are Lutheran Churches with ordained women (ELCA) and those who will not ordain women (MS, WELS). That is a major divide. The fact that the ELCA is considering how to address the demand (from some members) to allow for the ordination of gays will also cause divisions. The Book of Concord does not address these issues directly because at the time it was written, these issues did not exist. So it is possible for churches to be considered Lutheran yet have these very different opinions.


Women and gay ordination and didn't exist during the time of the Apostles??? Hmm, seems like women and gays were around then. Why didn't Christ or the Apostles pick any of them?

The problem is that the Lutheran church has no authority to define what is doctrine and require people to believe that it is. So, they believe what they want.

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I belong to the ELCA more or less because of geography. Our church would likely not call a woman or gay (or both) pastor. Ours is a conservative church within a more liberal ELCA.


Likely not? It is either wrong or right so why the gray area about it?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:17 pm 
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Women and gay ordination and didn't exist during the time of the Apostles???


Actually we don't really know if historically they did or didn't do we?

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The problem is that the Lutheran church has no authority to define what is doctrine and require people to believe that it is. So, they believe what they want.


That isn't true, but I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.

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Likely not? It is either wrong or right so why the gray area about it?


Because we haven't had the need to choose a new pastor the actual act of voting has not taken place. I can't read minds so it's an educated guess.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:20 pm 
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So how does the ELCA (since that is the Specific Lutheran Church you belong to) decide on such issues as I above stated (Stem cell research, Euthanasia, Abortion, Birth Control, Gay marriage, Woman priests.. an so on) that are not listed in the Book of Concord?
Then once a decision is made, what happens if there is a split in opinion regarding a decision rendered?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:24 pm 
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mike m wrote:
So how does the ELCA (since that is the Specific Lutheran Church you belong to) decide on such issues as I above stated (Stem cell research, Euthanasia, Abortion, Birth Control, Gay marriage, Woman priests.. an so on) that are not listed in the Book of Concord?
Then once a decision is made, what happens if there is a split in opinion regarding a decision rendered?


Isn't that a liberal Lutheran group? I would have figured commonman would have been Missouri Southern.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:29 pm 
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There are yearly conferences where these and other matters are addressed. It isn't a fast process. Individual churches have input. I don't know too much about the entire process, I have only recently paid attention to it. Most of the subjects you inquire about can be found on the ELCA website. As in the Catholic Church, just because the ELCA has a position on it, it does not mean every member of every church is in agreement.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:34 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
There are yearly conferences where these and other matters are addressed. It isn't a fast process. Individual churches have input. I don't know too much about the entire process, I have only recently paid attention to it. Most of the subjects you inquire about can be found on the ELCA website. As in the Catholic Church, just because the ELCA has a position on it, it does not mean every member of every church is in agreement.


commonman, don't you think that the word of the Apostles were absolute. That if members of the faithful felt they could resist their teaching, they would be ok by the apostolic mind? I would think that anyone who challenged their word would have been castigated.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:39 pm 
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don't you think that the word of the Apostles were absolute


Yes I do.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:46 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
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Women and gay ordination and didn't exist during the time of the Apostles???


Actually we don't really know if historically they did or didn't do we?


That is the lamest answer I've seen you give. You go around claiming that we only have limited sources to guide us to the Truth, and then what? Just make it up as we go?

CM quote from another thread wrote:
The norm for the development what we, as catholics, believe is as follows, keyrygma, diadache, leitourgia. The history of Mariology does not follow this norm.


Women and gay ordination does not follow the norm, yet you claim now that we don't know if it is historical. You put limits on where we can look, now go find your stupid women and gay ordination.

You're a punk for trying to throw this testing standard in our faces and yet you refuse to hold yourself to it. I'm starting to think you and GPBob are one in the same.

BTW, Mariology has been around and is historically recorded for many centuries. Your idiotic gay ordination hasn't. Then you have the gall to claim "we don't know". Well right back at you!!! At the most you can say is "WE DON'T KNOW" if Mariology is historical and accept it like you do your fancy crap of women and gay ordination. However, Mariology is historical and Scriptural.

Gay ordination = No Scriptural support (gay behavior is labeled as bad) + no historical evidence...yet CM's church believes it is acceptable and CM seems to be on the fence.

Mariology = Scriptural support, no contradiction, + historical evidence that it was taught in ~200-300AD...yet CM and his church throws it in our faces as being false.

CM, your a hypocrit.

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Quote:
The problem is that the Lutheran church has no authority to define what is doctrine and require people to believe that it is. So, they believe what they want.


That isn't true, but I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.


Your statements above do convience me that you definitely hold no authority and why, plus there is no reason to listen to your words on this subject since you are most definitely holding to false teachings because of the false testing standards you pose.

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Quote:
Likely not? It is either wrong or right so why the gray area about it?


Because we haven't had the need to choose a new pastor the actual act of voting has not taken place. I can't read minds so it's an educated guess.


So you don't know what is Truth until the vote happens? Geez...I thought you were guided by the Holy Spirit, not some vote of men.

Your post is very telling and full of irony...just like your church's reversal on contraceptives.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:05 pm 
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That is the lamest answer I've seen you give. You go around claiming that we only have limited sources to guide us to the Truth, and then what? Just make it up as we go?


It's not lame, it's true. Scripture is not a complete historical record of the past and you know that. Are you telling me that there were no homosexuals holding pastoral positions back then? How can you know this for sure? I am not advocationg gay pastors, I would vote no on such an issue, but they are already there and in the CC too.

Quote:
You're a punk for trying to throw this testing standard in our faces and yet you refuse to hold yourself to it. I'm starting to think you and GPBob are one in the same.


Quote:
BTW, Mariology has been around and is historically recorded for many centuries.


Yes, I know this, it isn't news. I asked a question on the other thread about this. It would be helpful if we didn't change topics within topics.

You have called me a weasel, now you call me a punk. What is the reason for your personal attacks on me ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:01 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
It's not lame, it's true. Scripture is not a complete historical record of the past and you know that. Are you telling me that there were no homosexuals holding pastoral positions back then? How can you know this for sure?


Find one (properly ordained woman or gay pastor). I found historical support of Mariology from well know Church Fathers. Yet you refuse to accept Mariology yet find no wrong doing in the Lutheran church for allowing or considering them.

Quote:
Quote:
You're a punk for trying to throw this testing standard in our faces and yet you refuse to hold yourself to it. I'm starting to think you and GPBob are one in the same.


Quote:
BTW, Mariology has been around and is historically recorded for many centuries.


Yes, I know this, it isn't news. I asked a question on the other thread about this. It would be helpful if we didn't change topics within topics.

You have called me a weasel, now you call me a punk. What is the reason for your personal attacks on me ?


The latter, for trying to make us dance through hoops that you are unwilling to hop through yourself. And the former, for dodging the underlying issues of an entire thread by refocusing it on a complete side issue until the thread was locked.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:35 pm 
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I found historical support of Mariology from well know Church Fathers.


Good, then follow this link and post it. I was asking for information or early teaching. In particular, the Assumption.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewtopic.php?t=35343&start=60

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I see a wolf,


Oh goodie yet another kind remark. The list is growing Grolandi.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:42 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
Quote:
I found historical support of Mariology from well know Church Fathers.


Good, then follow this link and post it. I was asking for information or early teaching. In particular, the Assumption.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewtopic.php?t=35343&start=60


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blesse ... adition-IV

Now, find the historical evidence of women and gay ordination or are you trying to avoid this thread now?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:50 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
Quote:
I found historical support of Mariology from well know Church Fathers.


Good, then follow this link and post it. I was asking for information or early teaching. In particular, the Assumption.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewtopic.php?t=35343&start=60

Quote:
I see a wolf,


Oh goodie yet another kind remark. The list is growing Grolandi.


I believe I have seen where the gospel of St. Peter speaks of the Assumption, the book was not considered at the Council of Hippo as Canical, but I would conclude that the teaching was there!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:52 pm 
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Grolandi wrote:
CommonMan wrote:
Quote:
I found historical support of Mariology from well know Church Fathers.


Good, then follow this link and post it. I was asking for information or early teaching. In particular, the Assumption.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewtopic.php?t=35343&start=60


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blesse ... adition-IV

Now, find the historical evidence of women and gay ordination or are you trying to avoid this thread now?


commonman does not support women or gay ordination! He may be questioning his Catholic faith at this point, but he hasn't gone that far. He might be associated with some who argue for it, but in the end, he will come home!

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