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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:53 pm 
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catholic defender wrote:
I believe I have seen where the gospel of St. Peter speaks of the Assumption, the book was not considered at the Council of Hippo as Canical, but I would conclude that the teaching was there!


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blesse ... the_bvm-VI

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:58 pm 
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Now, find the historical evidence of women and gay ordination or are you trying to avoid this thread now?


I have no evidence for or against it. Why? Because there is no historical records of such in Christ's ministry. Indeed, there is no record of Christ at all save the Scriptures (and a bit in Joephus). The point? My claim that we can't prove this historically one way or another stands.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:07 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
Quote:
Now, find the historical evidence of women and gay ordination or are you trying to avoid this thread now?


I have no evidence for or against it. Why? Because there is no historical records of such in Christ's ministry. Indeed, there is no record of Christ at all save the Scriptures (and a bit in Joephus). The point? My claim that we can't prove this historically one way or another stands.


I guess the Lord prefers to keep His mother in the family! He gives her to those who asks. I personally think Mary is cool and am thankful for her prayers for me. Read Psalms 45 vs 10-18, I can see the Magnificant all through it!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:09 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
Quote:
Now, find the historical evidence of women and gay ordination or are you trying to avoid this thread now?


I have no evidence for or against it. Why? Because there is no historical records of such in Christ's ministry. Indeed, there is no record of Christ at all save the Scriptures (and a bit in Joephus). The point? My claim that we can't prove this historically one way or another stands.


So, it seems to me you are suggesting man-made doctrine then. Scripture and history does indeed show us that ordaining non-gay men is acceptable, why change it? Or more appropriately said, why add to it?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:48 pm 
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Apostle of Iraq
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God destroyed Sodom! I guess you could say God wiped that slate clean!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:22 am 
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CommonMan wrote:
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Now, find the historical evidence of women and gay ordination or are you trying to avoid this thread now?


I have no evidence for or against it. Why? Because there is no historical records of such in Christ's ministry. Indeed, there is no record of Christ at all save the Scriptures (and a bit in Joephus). The point? My claim that we can't prove this historically one way or another stands.


Well we certainly can't find Christ teaching by faith alone or sola scriptura yet you believe that as central to your faith as a protestant.

Your surely on the hyporcitical end of this issue here. Saint Paul explicitly preached against practicing homosexuals even on the lay level so you are going to tell me Paul would have approved of a practicing homosexual who was ordained as a bishop? Bishops were held to a higher standard than laypersons and since laypersons could not be practicing homosexual common sense dictates no practicing homosexual clergy. But is commonsense to much for the commonman?

Saint Paul seemed to be pretty explicit about a woman's place in the church the qualifications were for that of a man in good standing in the community to even be in the running for bishop, presbyter or deacon.

Your working from not an agrument of silence but of contradiction from not only Christ but Paul and the other apostles and of course all the church fathers and all of church history until the 20th century.

Luther would have certainly flipped out about women clergy and homosexuals remember here was a man who was against brith control I don't think he would view such innovations as part of his legacy.


Heck other Lutherans like the WELS and Missouri Synod think ECLA has taken unscriptural stances on female clergy and homosexual should ECLA go though on their findings and the trend going on in churches in communions with them ie United CofC and Episcopalian Church USA.

You have failed a standard that you set up for Catholics ie Consistency in Scripture and Tradition in all ages and all times.
Catholcism come far closer to that than ECLA.
The Development in Doctrine in the catholic communion is not close to being the contradiction that ECLA proposes.

As far as practicing homosexuals that lived an openly gay standard as bishops, apostles et al ther is zero evidence for this being known and the religious being in good standing with the early church.
In theory there could be a person with homosexual inclination that did not engage in the lifestule and therefore not practice a gay lifestule and thus not constitute a sin. Which is akin to alcoholic priest not drinking alcohol but he still remains an alcoholic but by not drinking he does not cause scandal to his religious status in the church.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:44 am 
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Quote:
In theory there could be a person with homosexual inclination that did not engage in the lifestule and therefore not practice a gay lifestule and thus not constitute a sin.


This topic has veered so far off course I think it's time to end it.

Finally! My point exactly.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:10 am 
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Apostle of Iraq
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A temptation is not a sin, it is the acting upon such that makes it a sin. I don't think your going to find this line of reasoning promoted by the gay and lesbian task force!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:01 pm 
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Why would I care what they have to say about it?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:59 pm 
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CommonMan wrote:
Quote:
In theory there could be a person with homosexual inclination that did not engage in the lifestule and therefore not practice a gay lifestule and thus not constitute a sin.


This topic has veered so far off course I think it's time to end it.

Finally! My point exactly.


I think yoour the one who brought this up now that you see your on the loosing end you want out.
I notice a trend here.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:05 pm 
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Tobit, If you could find it in your power not interject personal comments about me and if you would stop going off on tangents and be a bit more pithy, maybe I we could actually have some semblance of a discussion.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:22 am 
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No personal comment that was an honest observation.
I am entitled to my opinion.
You sure do point fingers at others but can't take any constructive critcism.

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" They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]). Ignatius of Antioch


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