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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:05 pm 
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God is Love does not mean that Love is God.

And not following God's will is evil does not mean that evil is not following God's will.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:24 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
No. It is a theological one


Obi Wan said, "for those who have studied philosophy....". Therefore, I'm approaching this from a philosophical angle, not the study of logic.

The statement God is Love is theological though. So, again ..(and philosophy presupposes logic.)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:28 pm 
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David Hopkins wrote:
God is Love does not mean that Love is God.

And not following God's will is evil does not mean that evil is not following God's will.

Right.

What makes something fall outside God's will if He created all things, sustains all things and immediately cooperates in every positive action of His creatures?

So it must not be something created and it must not be a positive act....

If you answer that, you spy what evil is. IIRC this discussion branched off the Satan thread... why ontologically even Satan must be good. I am trying to nudge people in the right direction

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:38 pm 
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(We need a pot-stirring emoticon)

I propose the following for debate only, of course:

Evil is ignorance. If we knew what the right thing to do was, and if we understood the consequences of our wrong actions, we would never do anything wrong.

True or false? And why?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:50 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
(We need a pot-stirring emoticon)

I propose the following for debate only, of course:

Evil is ignorance. If we knew what the right thing to do was, and if we understood the consequences of our wrong actions, we would never do anything wrong.

True or false? And why?


That ignorance is an evil seems true (ignorance understood strictly that is, as a privatation of knowledge). But it seems false to say that evil is ignorance, at least for the reasons given. Ignorance can be called an efficient cause of evil, for if it were not present evil could not happen. But it has yet to be shown that it belongs per se to evil rather than per accidens (even if inseparably). Even granting it belongs per se, it would have to be shown as more than a efficient cause (4th sense of per se) but as belong to the WHAT IT IS of evil (1st sense of per se).

I think the definitions given so far are all nominal.

Following the Posterior Analytics I propose a demonstrative syllogism that produces a nominal definition... but the middle term would be the true definition

How is this:

evil belongs all blank
All blank belongs to that which is caused by ignorance
Evil belongs to that which is cause by ignorance



I need to stop reading Aristotle now

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:52 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
(We need a pot-stirring emoticon)

I propose the following for debate only, of course:

Evil is ignorance. If we knew what the right thing to do was, and if we understood the consequences of our wrong actions, we would never do anything wrong.

True or false? And why?


False, at least sort of. Definition should include "culpable ignorance" for "ignorance"--and then some definition of culpable and non-culpable forms of ignorace (sometimes called, if I remember right, vincible and invincible ignorance). And, didn't Augustine's example of stealing pears argue that we could do evil, knowing it is evil, for the purpose of just being evil? He seemed to exclude ignorance or other cognitive defects (as he was responding to the largely Greek, espcially platonic, notion of virtue and knowledge).


David


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:53 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Ignorance can be called an efficient cause of evil, for if it were not present evil could not happen.


Really? Did Adam and Eve not know the consequences of eating the fruit? Did Satan not know the consequences of his rebellion?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:54 pm 
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dsbrown wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
(We need a pot-stirring emoticon)

I propose the following for debate only, of course:

Evil is ignorance. If we knew what the right thing to do was, and if we understood the consequences of our wrong actions, we would never do anything wrong.

True or false? And why?


False, at least sort of. Definition should include "culpable ignorance" for "ignorance"--and then some definition of culpable and non-culpable forms of ignorace (sometimes called, if I remember right, vincible and invincible ignorance). And, didn't Augustine's example of stealing pears argue that we could do evil, knowing it is evil, for the purpose of just being evil? He seemed to exclude ignorance or other cognitive defects (as he was responding to the largely Greek, espcially platonic, notion of virtue and knowledge).


David

This is true when saying ignorance is evil (but even invincible ignorance takes the nature of a punisment, since it hinders one in pursuing Truth)

But Geoff proposed that evil is ignorance (and I am assuming a use of is to specify the what it is of evil).

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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
(We need a pot-stirring emoticon)

I propose the following for debate only, of course:

Evil is ignorance. If we knew what the right thing to do was, and if we understood the consequences of our wrong actions, we would never do anything wrong.

True or false? And why?


False, at least sort of. Definition should include "culpable ignorance" for "ignorance"--and then some definition of culpable and non-culpable forms of ignorace (sometimes called, if I remember right, vincible and invincible ignorance). And, didn't Augustine's example of stealing pears argue that we could do evil, knowing it is evil, for the purpose of just being evil? He seemed to exclude ignorance or other cognitive defects (as he was responding to the largely Greek, espcially platonic, notion of virtue and knowledge).


David


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:56 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Ignorance can be called an efficient cause of evil, for if it were not present evil could not happen.


Really? Did Adam and Eve not know the consequences of eating the fruit? Did Satan not know the consequences of his rebellion?

Oops. I should have been clearer. I meant to say granting that ignorance is present in every evil act... even then there would be problems.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:02 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Ignorance can be called an efficient cause of evil, for if it were not present evil could not happen.


Really? Did Adam and Eve not know the consequences of eating the fruit? Did Satan not know the consequences of his rebellion?

Oops. I should have been clearer. I meant to say granting that ignorance is present in every evil act... even then there would be problems.


Clarification, please. Is the discussion about evil in general or a species of evil, "moral evil"? Some of the posts seem to go both ways.

Thanks,

David


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:04 pm 
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Moral evil I presume... otherwise we would be talking of evil that God does indeed will positively (like a death or a sickness) though for a higher physical or moral good

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:12 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Moral evil I presume... otherwise we would be talking of evil that God does indeed will positively (like a death or a sickness) though for a higher physical or moral good


Thank you. That is what I thought. In that case, wouldn't any definition have to include freedom, knowledge, and intention? Hurting someone is certainly an evil but only a moral evil under certain circumstances, right?

David


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:18 pm 
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We're talking evil in general. Once that's pinned down, we can move into the physical/moral distinction.

By the way, for those who have some training in philosophy--please try to [strike]eschew[/strike] avoid the technical vocabulary. Even if it's longer to put it into layman's English, and even if some precision is lost, I would like to keep the discussion accessible to those who have not been fortunate enough (and I really do mean that) to have had the opportunity to study these topics formally.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
We're talking evil in general. Once that's pinned down, we can move into the physical/moral distinction.

By the way, for those who have some training in philosophy--please try to [strike]eschew[/strike] avoid the technical vocabulary. Even if it's longer to put it into layman's English, and even if some precision is lost, I would like to keep the discussion accessible to those who have not been fortunate enough (and I really do mean that) to have had the opportunity to study these topics formally.

Thanks.


May I make a suggestion? (I guess I will in any case.) I often find it helpful to start with an understanding of good before discussing evil. I have tried this in the ethics part of my parish RCIA program and in other places when I have to teach natural law.

In Genesis 1, after every day of creation God said "it is good." After he was finished he said it was "very good." What did God mean by calling everything he made good? What made it good?

Then, how did evil come in in Genesis 3?

Just a thought.


David


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:33 pm 
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Well in that case we have to go to square one. There are "evils" that God positively wills, like a sickness or death.

The english word evil is derived from yfel. Both can be used to mean that which is harmful. Perhaps that is a start if we include physical evils.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:46 pm 
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dsbrown wrote:
May I make a suggestion? (I guess I will in any case.) I often find it helpful to start with an understanding of good before discussing evil. I have tried this in the ethics part of my parish RCIA program and in other places when I have to teach natural law.


It's a thought, but I think most people have a least a generally workable idea of what good is. As the recent thread on the Devil indicates, far fewer have a working handle on evil. If not understanding "good" turns out to be a problem, we can go that way, but if you don't mind, let's hold off for the moment.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:49 pm 
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I'm late to the party...

Evil is what God defines as evil, or not good. The next question is, can something outside of God be good? If not, then are all things like animals and plants part of God? We know we are the Body of Christ, which would make us part of God and thus able to be good. However, all of Creation was deemed good by God too.

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Evil is ignorance. If we knew what the right thing to do was, and if we understood the consequences of our wrong actions, we would never do anything wrong.

True or false? And why?


False. Even when we, the finite, are in Heaven we will not know everything about God, the Infinite. Is our ignorance of God in Heaven an evil?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:41 pm 
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Grolandi wrote:
Evil is what God defines as evil, or not good.


So God could have decided that abortion was OK?

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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Grolandi wrote:
Evil is what God defines as evil, or not good.


So God could have decided that abortion was OK?


Why not? Abortion of other animals is not evil for various reasons.

However, He defined it as evil because of the value He assigned to humans which is different from animals.

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