Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 5   [ 100 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:00 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:46 pm
Posts: 591
Suppose we say that God created everything, and is responsible for absolutely everything. That would say God is responsible for evil. In that context, how would one define evil?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:26 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73451
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
God made the world and set it in motion. Does He guide bolts of lightning thrown by thunderclouds to strike people on the ground or airplanes in the sky?

Siggy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:56 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:49 am
Posts: 8982
Location: St. Francis Hall, FUS
Quote:
Does He guide bolts of lightning thrown by thunderclouds to strike people on the ground or airplanes in the sky?


Yup. Thunderstorms are practice sessions. Practice makes perfect.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:04 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73451
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
:P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:15 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82343
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Yoga wrote:
Suppose we say that God created everything, and is responsible for absolutely everything. That would say God is responsible for evil. In that context, how would one define evil?


I think you might benefit from reading the last few pages in this thread, where we've gone over the answer to this rather extensively. Basically, evil is not a thing; it is a lack of what ought to be there, and therefore God did not create it.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:20 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:57 pm
Posts: 4057
Location: Texas
Religion: Evangelical
Signum Crucis wrote:
God made the world and set it in motion. Does He guide bolts of lightning thrown by thunderclouds to strike people on the ground or airplanes in the sky?

Siggy


{God Speaking:} Job 38:35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

Job 36:32 He fills his hands with lightning and commands it to strike its mark.

_________________
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory. ~Ephesians 1:13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:36 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:57 pm
Posts: 4057
Location: Texas
Religion: Evangelical
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But the reason God made it possible can be stated simply, even though unpacking the consequences of that reason is a long process. God allowed for the possibility of sin because He could create a better world that way than if He did not make sin possible. That sounds as if it's placing limitations on God, but it isn't. He could have made a world consisting only of beings who had to love Him--but if they could not have done otherwise, what sort of "love" is that? Only by making it somehow possible for His created rational beings not to love Him could He achieve the great good of beings who choose to love Him.


I completely agree.

So, do you think God purposely allowed some good to be missing within Satan to accomplish His purposes? Because you do agree God holds everything- including the planets' rotations, etc. It the definition of evil is indeed something missing that should be there, was it purposeful because it would ultimately be for good with humans who truly love Him and appreciate His goodness and love?

I have a hard time believing that, though, because He did tell them not to eat of that fruit. I don't think He would "set them up" and cause death, etc. Death is the last "enemy" to be destroyed. So, I still don't know if I can "get" that evil is indeed something missing a good that is supposed to be there since God holds all things. That doesn't sufficiently place the blame where it should be. The Father of Lies is Satan- which means it originated with him instead of God.

But, I don't have a better proposition, definition either.

_________________
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory. ~Ephesians 1:13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:45 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82343
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
walking4faith wrote:
So, do you think God purposely allowed some good to be missing within Satan to accomplish His purposes?


Not quite. God created him with nothing lacking. But God did know what would happen if He gave angels (and men) free will, and chose to do it anyhow.

Quote:
So, I still don't know if I can "get" that evil is indeed something missing a good that is supposed to be there since God holds all things.


Can you expand on what you mean by "holds all things", please?

Quote:
That doesn't sufficiently place the blame where it should be. The Father of Lies is Satan- which means it originated with him instead of God.


Off the top of my head (where, after a slight hair-cutting accident, there isn't much at the moment), Satan's first lie was to himself. That is sufficient to place the blame where it belongs without giving Satan actual creative power.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:27 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:57 pm
Posts: 4057
Location: Texas
Religion: Evangelical
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
So, I still don't know if I can "get" that evil is indeed something missing a good that is supposed to be there since God holds all things.


Can you expand on what you mean by "holds all things", please?



Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Daniel 5:23 But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

James 4:13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."

Acts 18:20-21 When they asked him to spend more time with them, he declined. But as he left, he promised, "I will come back if it is God's will."

Job 5:12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.

Isaiah 8:10 Devise your strategy, but it will be thwarted; propose your plan, but it will not stand, for God is with us.
.
.
.
In other words, we can plan all we want, but if God doesn't allow it, it cannot be done. He is the ultimate approver. That's why I say He would have had to approve some good to be missing if that's really the definition of evil.

_________________
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory. ~Ephesians 1:13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:44 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73451
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
walking4faith wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
God made the world and set it in motion. Does He guide bolts of lightning thrown by thunderclouds to strike people on the ground or airplanes in the sky?

Siggy


{God Speaking:} Job 38:35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

Job 36:32 He fills his hands with lightning and commands it to strike its mark.


26 Behold, God is great, exceeding our knowledge: the number of his years is inestimable.

27 He lifteth up the drops of rain, and poureth out showers like floods:

28 Which flow from the clouds that cover all above.

29 If he will spread out clouds as his tent,

30 And lighten with his light from above, he shall cover also the ends of the sea.

31 For by these he judgeth people, and giveth food to many mortals.

32 In his hands he hideth the light, and commandeth it to come again.

33 He sheweth his friend concerning it, that it is his possession, and that he may come up to it.

What version are you quoting from, W4F?

Siggy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:51 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73451
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
There is a difference between lightning and lighten.

Siggy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:51 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82343
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I don't know Hebrew and thus decline to comment too much, but it would appear that the original is very ambiguous.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:59 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82343
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
walking4faith wrote:
In other words, we can plan all we want, but if God doesn't allow it, it cannot be done. He is the ultimate approver. That's why I say He would have had to approve some good to be missing if that's really the definition of evil.


We see God's will acting in two distinct ways. His will works actively when He positively moves to bring something about, as in acts of creation. His will works passively when He accepts something that He Himself would not choose, such as our sinful choices. He does not will us to sin, but he accepts the possibility of our sinning because He must do that if we are to be free beings.

That does not negate His providence. Since He knows every choice from the beginning of time, He can work out His will amidst our choices.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:20 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:57 pm
Posts: 4057
Location: Texas
Religion: Evangelical
Signum Crucis wrote:
walking4faith wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
God made the world and set it in motion. Does He guide bolts of lightning thrown by thunderclouds to strike people on the ground or airplanes in the sky?

Siggy


{God Speaking:} Job 38:35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

Job 36:32 He fills his hands with lightning and commands it to strike its mark.



What version are you quoting from, W4F?


The one I quoted is from the NIV. Here are some others:


New American Standard Bible
He covers His hands with the lightning, And commands it to strike the mark.

The Message
He hurls arrows of light, taking sure and accurate aim.

New Living Translation
He fills his hands with lightning bolts. He hurls each at its target.

Amplified Bible
He covers His hands with the lightning and commands it to strike the mark.

Young's Literal Translation
By two palms He hath covered the light, And layeth a charge over it in meeting

Let's take this last one as it is supposed to be "literal". "Two palms" are certainly taking the lightning in His hands. And having "charge over where it meets" is certainly making sure it strikes where He aims. So, this says the same thing as the others I quoted.

Also, you didn't comment on Job 38:35 where God shows He is the one who sends lightning bolts on their way, and Job doesn't, so who is He to say anything to God.

_________________
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory. ~Ephesians 1:13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:24 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:57 pm
Posts: 4057
Location: Texas
Religion: Evangelical
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
walking4faith wrote:
In other words, we can plan all we want, but if God doesn't allow it, it cannot be done. He is the ultimate approver. That's why I say He would have had to approve some good to be missing if that's really the definition of evil.


We see God's will acting in two distinct ways. His will works actively when He positively moves to bring something about, as in acts of creation. His will works passively when He accepts something that He Himself would not choose, such as our sinful choices. He does not will us to sin, but he accepts the possibility of our sinning because He must do that if we are to be free beings.

That does not negate His providence. Since He knows every choice from the beginning of time, He can work out His will amidst our choices.


So, with that in mind, then you are saying that God passively willed (allowed) Satan something He Himself would not choose. So, if God was passive, who was active in making the good not be there when it was supposed to be?

_________________
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory. ~Ephesians 1:13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:40 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82343
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
So, with that in mind, then you are saying that God passively willed (allowed) Satan something He Himself would not choose.


Right.

Quote:
So, if God was passive, who was active in making the good not be there when it was supposed to be?


Satan's choice. The makeup of angels and of humans allows for the possibility of choosing wrongly. Angels are stuck with their choice, whereas we can repent.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:31 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:16 pm
Posts: 63
Evil is a lack of good. God created all things. He could not create evil, because that would be evil, but he gave us free will which allows us to choose a degree of good.

Glutton's Son,
Glutton Jr.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:00 pm 
Pro Ecclesia Dei, I'd love to have you for a teacher..... I want the good 'ol days when students were not stumps and expected to debate the teacher in order to understand and learn!


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:54 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 29148
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
alyssa wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei, I'd love to have you for a teacher..... I want the good 'ol days when students were not stumps and expected to debate the teacher in order to understand and learn!


I am flattered... need to learn more patience before I teach though. :wink:

_________________
Quoniam sapientia aperuit os mutorum, et linguas infantium fecit disertas.

http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:30 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
walking4faith wrote:
God passively willed (allowed) Satan something He Himself would not choose. So, if God was passive, who was active in making the good not be there when it was supposed to be?


Free will. God is perfect. There is no defect in Him. Ergo, it is misleading to say God can choose perfection or imperfection: what is real (good) or what is defective (evil).

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 5   [ 100 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: