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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:21 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Does anyone else here feel obliged to restrict themselves to Catholic doctrine and an explanation of speculative ideas as speculative, rather than pontificating their views as if they were Catholic doctrine? In my first post I mentioned the idea of abortion and baptism of blood, as well as other extraordinary means... but I rightfully stated they had no basis in revelation but were just opinion, pious perhaps. I explained both St. Augustine's views and St. Thomas's. But I refrained from saying that I knew the answer.

Apparently some of you have a direct feed to God... I know that whatever happens is in accord with His justice and mercy and if they go to hell and suffer as St. Augustine held, that detracts nothing from Mary, let alone God.Goddoesn't "lose" by them going to Hell... indeed, I could very well argue that if they did not go to Hell Satan would have no reason to support abortion if it equaled a ticket to heaven.

Lastly, no God is not bound, but He has bound Himself. His establish order is (quoting Ott) that "baptism of water is necessary without exception for the salvation of every man". He has absolute power, but He also has an established order. In nature when He acts outside of it we call it a miracle.



He has bound Himself to fulfill what He has revealed. He has not bound himself to not fulfill what he has not revealed.

Think about it for a minute.

You comment about satan not wanting abortion if it were a direct ticket to heaven is also dubious. He wanted the crucifixion as well, after all.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:22 am 
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Well, what do you mean to say by telling us that the holy innocents didn't need to profess the faith to be killed for it? If you don't want to imply that the holy innocents are analagous to aborted infants, then what do you want to say?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:25 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
seanie wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Sean, everymurdered person is a martyr, yes or no?

Every pre meditated murder is martyrdom, yes or no?

If no, then how can you say that abortion=martyrdom...

Abortionists and distraught mohters do not take marching orders from Satan.


PED, where did you get this idea? I'm asking you about the intention of the soldiers doing the killing of the Holy Innocents.

Please try to read what I said instead of jumping to conclusions.


I have. This is a conclusion that follows from what you have said.


Where on earth do I talk about pre-meditated murder? Are we on the same thread here?

Simple question PED: in the caseof the Holy Innocents, whose intention mattered? Herod, or the soldiers?

I'm not taknign about every abortion, let alone every murder.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:26 am 
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seanie wrote:

He has bound Himself to fulfill what He has revealed. He has not bound himself to not fulfill what he has not revealed.

So now He has all these secret means of salvation not revealed to the Church? This is starting to smack of a denial of the Church's necessity for salvation. Apparently this one road which we all thought was the only established by God is next to other roads to heaven

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:27 am 
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caleb wrote:
Well, what do you mean to say by telling us that the holy innocents didn't need to profess the faith to be killed for it? If you don't want to imply that the holy innocents are analagous to aborted infants, then what do you want to say?


Caleb,

did the Holy Innocents profess the faith or didn't they?

As PED correctly pointed out, it was why there were killed that they are honoured as the Holy Innocents. But whose intention counted? Herod's? The soldier's?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:29 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
seanie wrote:

He has bound Himself to fulfill what He has revealed. He has not bound himself to not fulfill what he has not revealed.

So now He has all these secret means of salvation not revealed to the Church? This is starting to smack of a denial of the Church's necessity for salvation. Apparently this one road which we all thought was the only established by God is next to other roads to heaven


Quit imagining things PED.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:30 am 
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seanie wrote:
Where on earth do I talk about pre-meditated murder? Are we on the same thread here?

If abortion is martyrdom because it is evil and opposed to Christ as such, because Satan wants it, not because of those human persons involved, it follows that one must say that homicide is martyrdom, because it is evil, etc.

The Holy Innocents first of all were killed prior to the necessity of baptism. Secondly, they were killed as for proximate end of opposing Christ. The opposition to Christ in homicide generally speaking, abortion or no, is not proximate but remote

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:31 am 
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seanie wrote:
caleb wrote:
Well, what do you mean to say by telling us that the holy innocents didn't need to profess the faith to be killed for it? If you don't want to imply that the holy innocents are analagous to aborted infants, then what do you want to say?


Caleb,

did the Holy Innocents profess the faith or didn't they?

As PED correctly pointed out, it was why there were killed that they are honoured as the Holy Innocents. But whose intention counted? Herod's? The soldier's?
Doesn't matter... the intention was proximate. In this case because Herod ordered it. But it is no proximate in abortion,at least all abortions

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:33 am 
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seanie wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
seanie wrote:

He has bound Himself to fulfill what He has revealed. He has not bound himself to not fulfill what he has not revealed.

So now He has all these secret means of salvation not revealed to the Church? This is starting to smack of a denial of the Church's necessity for salvation. Apparently this one road which we all thought was the only established by God is next to other roads to heaven


Quit imagining things PED.

I am not. Perhaps you should really think on how words are taken in the context of this thread... precision in words and concepts is necessary for me to understand you precisely as you intend. There is no, non-revealed means of salvation, that is the Church is the only ark. We not only know of no other ark, there isn't one.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:35 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
seanie wrote:
caleb wrote:
Well, what do you mean to say by telling us that the holy innocents didn't need to profess the faith to be killed for it? If you don't want to imply that the holy innocents are analagous to aborted infants, then what do you want to say?


Caleb,

did the Holy Innocents profess the faith or didn't they?

As PED correctly pointed out, it was why there were killed that they are honoured as the Holy Innocents. But whose intention counted? Herod's? The soldier's?
Doesn't matter... the intention was proximate. In this case because Herod ordered it. But it is no proximate in abortion,at least all abortions


But there you go using the word "all". You can 't say no abortions are proximate oppositions to Christ, can you?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:38 am 
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seanie wrote:
caleb wrote:
Well, what do you mean to say by telling us that the holy innocents didn't need to profess the faith to be killed for it? If you don't want to imply that the holy innocents are analagous to aborted infants, then what do you want to say?


Caleb,

did the Holy Innocents profess the faith or didn't they?

As PED correctly pointed out, it was why there were killed that they are honoured as the Holy Innocents. But whose intention counted? Herod's? The soldier's?

In your view, it appears the answer is, . . . Satan's? Then we reduce all sin to the unwilfull following of Satan's orders.

Is abortion done specifically with the intention to destroy the faith as the murder of the Holy Innocents was? Where's the encompassing uber-intention that makes abortion into martyrdom?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:41 am 
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caleb,

if there's a confusion between proximate and remote causes then you can't say a given act of abortion is not an act of martyrdom.

And you still haven't answered my question: whose intention made the slaughter of the Innocents into martyrdom?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:42 am 
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seanie wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
seanie wrote:
caleb wrote:
Well, what do you mean to say by telling us that the holy innocents didn't need to profess the faith to be killed for it? If you don't want to imply that the holy innocents are analagous to aborted infants, then what do you want to say?


Caleb,

did the Holy Innocents profess the faith or didn't they?

As PED correctly pointed out, it was why there were killed that they are honoured as the Holy Innocents. But whose intention counted? Herod's? The soldier's?
Doesn't matter... the intention was proximate. In this case because Herod ordered it. But it is no proximate in abortion,at least all abortions


But there you go using the word "all". You can 't say no abortions are proximate oppositions to Christ, can you?

No. Nor have I denied the possibility of baptism of blood. Indeed,I afformed its possibility... but it does notalways happen, or even happen most of the time, that the proximate intention is opposition to the faith. That would be rare

Indeed,how often do you think even an abortionist goes "I am going to abort this foetuslest it be baptise, or lest it comes to Christ,or because I hate Christ"

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:43 am 
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PED, how often I think it happens is completely irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:44 am 
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seanie wrote:
caleb,

if there's a confusion between proximate and remote causes then you can't say a given act of abortion is not an act of martyrdom.

You can if none of the human agents had the proximate intent necessary.

I think the problem here in understanding you is because we see you as trying to back up doug c, who effectively made the argument caleb gave. Satan is the proximate cause of it all... apparrently all abortionists are possessed

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:46 am 
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seanie wrote:
caleb,

if there's a confusion between proximate and remote causes then you can't say a given act of abortion is not an act of martyrdom.

And you still haven't answered my question: whose intention made the slaughter of the Innocents into martyrdom?

Well, you haven't answered my question, What did you mean to say by bringing up the Holy Innocents in the first place? So I guess we're even.

You realize, don't you, that you are saying that we can't really tell whether any particular instance of homicide is or isn't martyrdom?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:48 am 
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The problem is, PED, I made two comments at the start, one an obvious pious opinion (about Mary's mantle), the second one concerning the intent of the killers of the Holy Innocents. Not looking for a fight, just trying to get clear why exactly the Holy Innocents get the tag of martyrdom.

In fact, it turned into a question on abortion instead of death before birth in general. Regardless of how God relates abortion to the massacre of the Innocents, it still leaves unresolved what happens to miscarried children.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:49 am 
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seanie wrote:
PED, how often I think it happens is completely irrelevant.

No, it is not. Doug gave an argument that abortion is per omnia martyrdom, if not per se. Indeed, he actually implies it is per se. I do not deny that martyrdom can belong per accidens to abortion, just that it is per se, and almost certainly not per omnia. If we do not say that all homicide, of which abortion is a species of, is martyrdom, then what reason is there from saying that, indeed,martyrdom belongs per totuum to abortion?

To say that an act of abortion can be martyrdom is not objected to by me. But to say that it is always so, or necessarily so, or beolong to abortion qua abortion, is what I attack.

I think that perhaps there is a misunderstanding. When one appears to be defending another's position, I assume they hold that position

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:52 am 
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seanie wrote:
The problem is, PED, I made two comments at the start, one an obvious pious opinion (about Mary's mantle), the second one concerning the intent of the killers of the Holy Innocents. Not looking for a fight, just trying to get clear why exactly the Holy Innocents get the tag of martyrdom.

In fact, it turned into a question on abortion instead of death before birth in general. Regardless of how God relates abortion to the massacre of the Innocents, it still leaves unresolved what happens to miscarried children.

Your comments were in the context of an already going on discussion and were taken up in that context. As we were responding to Doug, you appeared to be asking about the Holy Innocents with view of defending the position of abortion= baptism of blood. Perhaps this is wrong, but your comments were seen as being connected to what was being said and interpreted in that ight

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:53 am 
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caleb wrote:
seanie wrote:
caleb,

if there's a confusion between proximate and remote causes then you can't say a given act of abortion is not an act of martyrdom.

And you still haven't answered my question: whose intention made the slaughter of the Innocents into martyrdom?

Well, you haven't answered my question, What did you mean to say by bringing up the Holy Innocents in the first place? So I guess we're even.

Where's the stick-your-tongue-out smiley.. oh here :P

You realize, don't you, that you are saying that we can't really tell whether any particular instance of homicide is or isn't martyrdom?

Oh no, we can tell if something is martyrdom. It might not be so easy to tell if something isn't. After all, that girl in Columbine, Rachel Scott, was asked before she died if she believed in God. Saying yes cost her her earthly life. If there hadn't been any witness, we wouldn't know she had died for Christ, would we? (let's not get into the fact she wasn't Catholic)

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