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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:58 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
seanie wrote:
PED, how often I think it happens is completely irrelevant.

No, it is not. Doug gave an argument that abortion is per omnia martyrdom, if not per se. Indeed, he actually implies it is per se. I do not deny that martyrdom can belong per accidens to abortion, just that it is per se, and almost certainly not per omnia. If we do not say that all homicide, of which abortion is a species of, is martyrdom, then what reason is there from saying that, indeed,martyrdom belongs per totuum to abortion?

To say that an act of abortion can be martyrdom is not objected to by me. But to say that it is always so, or necessarily so, or beolong to abortion qua abortion, is what I attack.

I think that perhaps there is a misunderstanding. When one appears to be defending another's position, I assume they hold that position



No, I didn't agree with Doug that abortion is per omnia martyrdom.

Carry on...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:00 am 
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ok. I apologise for misunderstanding you, but I hope you can see why I did

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:02 am 
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So we cannot tell when something is not martyrdom.

1. The proximate cause of miscarriage is the loss of grace that preserved humanity, lost by the fall of Adam, tempted by Satan in the guise of a serpent.
2. Satan misled Adam to destroy the faith.
3. All miscarriage is martyrdom.

Let's just say that all death results from the same proximate cause and is therefore martyrdom.

Okay, does that make sense?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:04 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
ok. I apologise for misunderstanding you, but I hope you can see why I did


I apologize for being a nebulous git.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:06 am 
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caleb wrote:
So we cannot tell when something is not martyrdom.

1. The proximate cause of miscarriage is the loss of grace that preserved humanity, lost by the fall of Adam, tempted by Satan in the guise of a serpent.
2. Satan misled Adam to destroy the faith.
3. All miscarriage is martyrdom.

Let's just say that all death results from the same proximate cause and is therefore martyrdom.

Okay, does that make sense?


You are trying to say the proximate cause of martyrdom is the fall of Adam?

huh?

EDIT: have to dash off for a few hours...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:39 am 
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Why can't the 'confusion of remote and proximate causes' be extended to the origins of death in the chain of causation, rendering every instance of death traceable in proximate order to the fall of man?

Because that's where, it seems to me, this line of thinking eventually leads.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:49 am 
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Unless I missed it, I didn't see any comment on what I stated about the abortion war. If those babies go to hell, then wouldn't that mean that God has lost that war and the devil is not only winning that war in a VERY decisive manner, but also increasing the attack to set up millions of more souls to hell.

Can someone explain to me how God has lost that war? I don't believe for a moment that God would lose, especially on that front, but it seems that would be the case of those little ones are in hell.

Also, how can a soul be condemned to hell when its never seen mortal sin? Mortal sin is what damns us to hell.

Just a thought - I really don't know the answer: If the mother receives the Eucharist while pregnant, does the baby receive also?

God Bless,
Doug


Last edited by Doug C. on Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Doug C. wrote:
Unless I missed it, I didn't see any comment on what I stated about the abortion war. If those babies go to hell, then wouldn't that mean that God has lost that war and the devil is not only winning that war in a VERY decisive manner, but also increasing the attack to set up millions of more souls to hell.

Can someone explain to me how God has lost that war? I don't believe for a moment that God would lose, especially on that front, but it seems that would be the case of those little ones are in hell.

God Bless,
Doug

Are you not begging the question?

I believe in massa damnata. Does my belief entail that God loses "the war" because more souls go to Hell than heaven?

I see a bunch of rhetoric in your post about some nebulous idea of a war... there is a war of good and evil, but what belongs per se to abortion so that God "loses" if a soul dies in original sin? Does He lose when any soul goes to Hell? If only with abortion, why? Does this aspect apply to the abortion "war" per accidens or per se? If the former, always or only here and there? If the latter, does it belong qua abortion, or qua homicide?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:07 pm 
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BTW,the fallacy of your argument is an appeal to alleged consequences. Though it is true that appealing to consequences is a valid argument of persuasion, it is no proof. More to this, you have not shown how it follows that "God loses"

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:16 pm 
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Quote:
Just a thought - I really don't know the answer: If the mother receives the Eucharist while pregnant, does the baby receive also?


I don't think that very many women who have an abortion would also be receiving the Eucharist.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:20 pm 
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When the accidents of the Eucharist are gone, the substance is gone. So it's a moot point.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:25 pm 
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caleb wrote:
When the accidents of the Eucharist are gone, the substance is gone. So it's a moot point.

Also, it isimpossible to receive any sacrament prior to baptism

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:51 pm 
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Baltimore Catechism #3, offficial revised of 1941 version:

#832: How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism?

A: Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism CAN BE SAVED through what is called the baptism of blood or the baptism of desire.

#837: What is necessary in order that a child below the age of reason be a martyr?

A: In order that a child below the age of reason be a martyr it is necessary that someone out of hatred for Christ or for His Church or for His teachings inflict on him physical sufferings sufficient to cause death; no dispositions are necessary on the part of the child, any more than for the baptism of water.

Pius X Catechism:

17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

An aborted child killed because of rejection of Chirst's teachings. As someone said above, the ones involved in abortion probably aren't the ones in church.

Where do you see "condemned to hell" in any of that?

God Bless,
Doug


Last edited by Doug C. on Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:51 pm 
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caleb wrote:
Why can't the 'confusion of remote and proximate causes' be extended to the origins of death in the chain of causation, rendering every instance of death traceable in proximate order to the fall of man?

Because that's where, it seems to me, this line of thinking eventually leads.



caleb,

just because sometimes the cause it isn't obvious doesn't mean every instance of death has a proximate cause in the fall of Adam. You're trying to argue particular -> general.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:59 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
caleb wrote:
When the accidents of the Eucharist are gone, the substance is gone. So it's a moot point.

Also, it isimpossible to receive any sacrament prior to baptism


These answers, especially caleb's, thankfully explain why the baby in the womb does not receive communion when the mother receives.

Otherwise. think of the problem if (to prevent such reception) every woman would have to pee on a pregnancy test strip every time she enters a communion line! We would need extra EMHC's to hand out strips and read the results.


Edward Pothier


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:03 pm 
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Doug C. wrote:
An aborted child killed because of rejection of Chirst's teachings. As someone said above, the ones involved in abortion probably aren't the ones in church.

Where do you see "condemned to hell" in any of that?

God Bless,
Doug


Rejection of Christ's teaching on the part of a murderer does not make it martyrdom. Only if thekilling is done precisely with the intent on the part of the murderer to do it out of hathred for Christ. Simply being an infidel or a heretic does not make a murderer a martyr-maker

If one dies in original sin they go to hell. Very simple. And that is all I have said. I have not denied baptism of the Holy Ghost (vaguely calleddesire in english translations) or of bloo. I have denied that these belong to abortion necessarily (per se) and highly doubt it belongs per accidens to all (per omnia) cases of abortion, and fail to see why it would belong to abortion as (qua) abortion.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:17 pm 
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The proximate cause of miscarriage is the loss of grace that preserved humanity, lost by the fall


WEll, my fiancee has spinal ambiffita. If he were born a bit earlier, he probably wouldn't of lived. I highly doubt him not living would be lack of grace. Also, his mother may of had an abortoin cause having him would of only put her in more harm (if he wouldn't live anyways.)

I don't know what fait they were but they are Catholics and I think they were back then when he was born too. I think its more the faith and intention of the parent.

I would think a priest could see someobdy going through a misscarriage too and say whatever and maybe baptise them then.


I wouldn't want a God who condemns unborns (especially through misscarriage. Which ARE NOT the parents' fault.) I don' tknow where it says that in the bible. I'd like to have excat places on that. I'm not talking about our original sin, but if unborns are condemned, especially those in misscarriage.

I know we have seperation of church and state so maybe it won't work, but I'd like a required baptism when a child is miscarried or aborted.


Let me put myself in another woman's shoes. I'm pregnant and I misscarry or the baby is born very sick and dies. I myself believe in God and am baptised (and even if not.) If this baby went to damnation, would I ever want to conceive again?

I'm not tryin to be mean here, just God's "amazing grace" is amazing.



I also agree with the person saying this would mean God's losing to Satan too. God will never loose.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:45 pm 
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Where does the leap come from that says that the proximate intention that causes abortion is unknowable? Because locating that supposed spot of ambiguity, I think, will show that the same ambiguity could apply to every homicide, if not every death, and therefore would render meaningless the distinction between being murdered and being martyred.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:51 pm 
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caleb wrote:
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torn wrote:
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I don't think it is a question of "To lead your intellect by feelings is to abandon reason", I think it is a question of finding how your feeling and your intellect can be in harmony. Intellect is not the supreme guide. Reason can take you only so far. It's like a car, it's very useful and it can take you a long way, many miles to someone's house for example, but it does not take you through the front door, into the living room. At some point you have to leave the car, walk to the door, through the door, into the house!

Reason takes precedence over feeling, and your metaphor doesn't correpsond to the intellect and feelings but rather to reason and action. And actions ought to arise from reason, not from feelings.

Who says reason takes precedence over feeling? It's my choice, I can choose feeling over reason if I wish. Reason isn't always right, reason is often imperfect. (And it wasn't a metaphor, it was an analogy, and, like most analogies, not meant to be an exact analogy.)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:15 pm 
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Dorothy wrote:
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With regard to love being a feeling.....it is a *commitment* of our will, much of the time it is *not* accompanied by feelings.

If we relied on feelings we would just be tossed here and there, without any focus.

Unfortunately, it is the lack of commitment and perseverance that is causing the break-up of so many marriages today.

I understand what you mean Dorothy, and I agree to some extent. But personally I think we can rely on our deepest feelings, perhaps not 100 per cent, but often with more confidence than we can rely on our imperfect reason. I agree that if we relied on shallow feelings to guide us, "we would be tossed here and there, without any focus". But as I said, I believe we need to be guided by both our feeling and our reason. Reason alone can mislead us very easily. An alcoholic who wants to drink will find a reason. That is why Alcoholics Anonymous say that one of the essential steps to recovery is to acknowledge a higher power.

I agree that much of the time love is a commitment of the will, and some of the time is not accompanied by feelings of love. But love is also a feeling. We can feel love for other people, and for God, and we can feeled loved by other people, and by God. I was referring to the kind of love Jesus talked about when He said the two greatest commandments are:
Quote:
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I think we have to act from the heart as well as the head.


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