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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:27 pm 
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PED wrote:
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torn wrote:

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Love is a feeling.

Matthew 22:37-39
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Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.





BS, and stupid too. Love or more properly termed, charity, is an act of the will. Not some "feeling". I love my neighbour not in an emotional sense (indeed I dislike many of my neighbours), but yet I love those I dislike by an act of the will because I love God. Love simply put is the willing of the good. When we love another (agape) we will the other's good.

The Angelic Doctor nicely points out that charity (love) is friendship

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I answer that, According to the Philosopher (Ethic. viii, 2,3) not every love has the character of friendship, but that love which is together with benevolence, when, to wit, we love someone so as to wish good to him. If, however, we do not wish good to what we love, but wish its good for ourselves, (thus we are said to love wine, or a horse, or the like), it is love not of friendship, but of a kind of concupiscence. For it would be absurd to speak of having friendship for wine or for a horse


The intellect is what is to guide us as rational creatures. The moment we try putting feelings above or even on par with reason, we wound our free will.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:30 pm 
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Torn,

<<I understand what you mean Dorothy, and I agree to some extent. But personally I think we can rely on our deepest feelings, perhaps not 100 per cent, but often with more confidence than we can rely on our imperfect reason.>>

You say "imperfect reason".....but shouldn't we be relying on the revealed truth of the Magisterium of the Church, as our Lord Jesus Christ gave the Church the authority to teach? Then we would be relying on the truth, which is revealed to us for our own good.

Peace,

Dorothy

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:18 pm 
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Dorothy wrote:
<<"The souls of those who die in mortal sin or original sin only descend immediately to Hell, but to different punishments and places" De Fide >>

PED,

Then why do we not see this in the Catechism which contains the doctrine of the Church?

And, if this is De Fide teaching, then shouldn't we be going around baptizing whenever and however we can to save the babies who are born to parents who would not baptize them?


That is exactly what we should do if we are certain the parents will not baptize the infant. My sister-in-law is still mad at me for baptizing her daughter, my niece, a beautiful child, who, alas, has passed the age of reason, and so far as I know shows no sign of persuing the true Faith. I pray for her as my spiritual daughter.

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:40 pm 
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Torn

If you want to enslave yourself like an animal to your feeling, renounce that giftof reason which is what makes us in imago Dei, forget about salvation and abandon yourself to fate, then give feeling precedence to reason

It is what it is of man to be rational. We are endowed with a rational soul. We can think and we can choose. But the moment we listen to the sensistive soul, the lower part of the soul shared in common with brute beasts, not with God, and give it precedence over the higher parts that we share with angels and God, we turn the created order upside down and disorder our sin, destroy harmony of the soul. Indeed, such a soul is most truly unjust.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:24 pm 
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PED, I think you and I are talking about two different things when we talk about "feeling".

I could be an atheist or an agnostic if I wanted to be. Many atheists and agnostics have become atheists and agnostics through reasoning. I have never doubted the existence of God. But I am not a believer in God through reasoning, or at least not primarily through reasoning. I am a believer in God through feeling. I have always been sure of that feeling, I have never doubted it. I was sure of that feeling as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult.

From the age of about 16 onwards, I studied reasoned arguments both for and against the existence of God. I'm not saying reasoning isn't useful, but those arguments, for and against, did not significantly change my belief in God one way or the other, because my belief in God was never primarily based on reason. Reason backed it up, but the feeling was there first, and has always remained with me.

The kind of feeling I am talking about is, for example, when you look at a beautiful sunset, or the smile on a child's face, and you feel a sense of gratitude towards your Creator for giving you the gift of this existence.

I am very rational, by the way. But I am also guided by feeling. The two are not incompatible, unless at least one of them is false. I may at times have reasoned falsely about the existence of God, but I have always been sure of the feeling.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:29 pm 
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torn wrote:
I could be an atheist or an agnostic if I wanted to be.


Faith is an infused virtue, and it is obvious to all here that you sorely lack it. You are an atheist or agnostic --and not because you want to be.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:12 am 
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Can animals have some sort of intelligence or freedom of will? A friend pointed out to me that a mother can sacrafice herself for her young or even for the young of other species. Dogs even help humans. Aren't these signs that animals do have some limited intelligence or freedom of will (obviously not as much as we do). Isn't an ape close to an image of God then an insect is?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:50 am 
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people can choose to be atheist or agnostic.

Some go from dispising and hating God for wrong done to them and/or others until it becomes total disbelief he even exists. Sadly I know about this withiin my family (not me though)


coolmk20x,

I believe it also shows animals have souls/spirits. Some think they don't go to heaven when they die. But, I feel they may. How can a dog show so much love and affection and not have a soul or spirit? I mean they've gotta have a heart/emotions to do this, so why not a soul?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:10 pm 
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I'm always puzzled when things like this are brought up in conversation: who is or isn't going to heaven. Look, God is the one who knows how the whole life-given/soul-given thing works not us. Let him do his job and we should fulfill his commandment to us to do good works here on earth. If you need something more concrete than that, consider that those who are passing on are not being taken from their reward, they're being taken from their suffering.


Last edited by Fish on Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:31 pm 
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<< Look, God is the one who knows how the whole life-given/soul-given thing works not us. Let him do his job and we should fulfill his commandment to us to do good works here on earth. If you need something more concrete than that, consider that those who are passing on are not being taken from their reward, they're being taken from their suffering. >>

Amen....the Lord knows what He is about, we don't have to second guess Him!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:28 pm 
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Fish wrote:
I'm always puzzled when things like this are brought up in conversation: who is or isn't going to heaven. Look, God is the one who knows how the whole life-given/soul-given thing works not us. Let him do his job and we should fulfill his commandment to us to do good works here on earth. If you need something more concrete than that, consider that those who are passing on are not being taken from their reward, they're being taken from their suffering.


He gave us the Church and Revelation. Our job in life is first and foremost to save our own souls, and then to save the souls of others

Outside the Church there is no salvation we are told by God... to then negelect our duty to "baptise all nations" is to be complicit in the sin of their rejecting the only way to heaven... indeed, perhaps many are invincibly ignorant and not guilty on this account for not being baptised, but I fear that though they may be excused by the mercy of God, God will on the Dies Irae, condemn many for failing in their duty to bring the Gospel to all.

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