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 Post subject: Religious Indifferentism
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:23 am 
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Indifferentism is the greatest heresy of our time. In the last 30 or 40 years, it has flourished and grown to the point where it threatens the very existence of the one true Church.

May God have mercy on us.

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:45 pm 
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do you mean people coming together and combining faiths and sacrificing what they feel to combine?

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Indifferentism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:01 pm 
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pax wrote:
Indifferentism is the greatest heresy of our time. In the last 30 or 40 years, it has flourished and grown to the point where it threatens the very existence of the one true Church.

May God have mercy on us.


I have dealt with this as well, it is not fun dealing with people who are indifferent about faith, they tend to give the Holy Spirit credit for their indifference.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:50 pm 
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MySavingGrace wrote:
do you mean people coming together and combining faiths and sacrificing what they feel to combine?


What they "feel"?

No offense here, but "feel" and "believe" are not synonyms. They refer to two completely different things. I feel tired, I think that most men are damned, I believe in God.

Feeling rests on the will. Belief on the intellect.

And yes, he is speaking about syncretism and also about the attitude "what is true for me might not be true for you" which is absurd

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:04 am 
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Belief rests on the decision.

Just like you can "love" a person even during times you're angry with them or don't particularly like them, you can "believe" in your church even when you feel it's getting off track or even derailed.

Your commitment is an act of your will, even if your intellect tells you differently.

Your decision is what gets you through the rough spots in your relationship when you wonder why you hang in there.

I was just reading on another board about how the Catholics in a very Catholic city, St. Louis, feel as if their new bishop is trying to catapult them into the twelfth century, but they're hanging in through this rough spot because of decision, not intellect.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:57 am 
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By definition, Religious Indifferentism is that false belief which says men can be saved by following any religion whatsoever. Syncretism --the combining of different religions-- is an entirely different abomination, as is Relativism ("true for you, not for me").

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:13 pm 
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allegro54 wrote:
Belief rests on the decision.

Just like you can "love" a person even during times you're angry with them or don't particularly like them, you can "believe" in your church even when you feel it's getting off track or even derailed.

Your commitment is an act of your will, even if your intellect tells you differently.


Love is an act of the will, belief is an act of Faith. Now normally, when we act is an ordered manner, our will acts towards something that is presented to it by the intellect. However, with Faith (that is the Divine Virtue of Faith), there is an act of the will prior to that of the intellect... the will moves the intellect to belief. Nevertheless, though there is an act of the will, the belief itself resides in the intellect, it belongs to the intellective faculty.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:37 pm 
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allegro54 wrote:
I was just reading on another board about how the Catholics in a very Catholic city, St. Louis, feel as if their new bishop is trying to catapult them into the twelfth century, but they're hanging in through this rough spot because of decision, not intellect.


What on earth does this mean? And what makes a city 'Catholic' - that the people identify themselves as 'Catholic' or that they follow the Catholic faith (the answer to this one is obvious)? What would the reference to the twelfth century mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Religious Indifferentism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:33 pm 
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pax wrote:
Indifferentism is the greatest heresy of our time. In the last 30 or 40 years, it has flourished and grown to the point where it threatens the very existence of the one true Church.

May God have mercy on us.


Oh Pax... Who cares?

heh..

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Indifferentism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:48 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
Indifferentism is the greatest heresy of our time. In the last 30 or 40 years, it has flourished and grown to the point where it threatens the very existence of the one true Church.

May God have mercy on us.


Oh Pax... Who cares?

heh..

FJ


Ha ha! Of course you know the one about the teacher who asked his student to give him the definitions of ignorance and apathy?

"I don't know and I don't care," the student replied.

heh back atchya

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Religious Indifferentism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:17 pm 
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pax wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
Indifferentism is the greatest heresy of our time. In the last 30 or 40 years, it has flourished and grown to the point where it threatens the very existence of the one true Church.

May God have mercy on us.


Oh Pax... Who cares?

heh..

FJ


Ha ha! Of course you know the one about the teacher who asked his student to give him the definitions of ignorance and apathy?

"I don't know and I don't care," the student replied.

heh back atchya


:)... love it! No, I have never heard that, but you just gave me my opening line for my first lecture in next semester's Bioethics class...

BTW - I think you are right on the money, and I hope more participate in this thread and offer ways to overcome this disaster... Of course, Christ himself warned us that lukewarmness was the worst of the worst... I guess we should have figured that Satan would try to make it public policy...

FJ

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:38 pm 
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pax wrote:
Indifferentism is the greatest heresy of our time. In the last 30 or 40 years, it has flourished and grown to the point where it threatens the very existence of the one true Church.

May God have mercy on us.

By definition, Religious Indifferentism is that false belief which says men can be saved by following any religion whatsoever.



I obviously agree with you.

I don't know if I should post my comments here or a new thread in the Apologetics room. But, they go together with this thread as I've been thinking about this since you first posted it.

What is interesting to me, after being involved in some of the threads recently on Judgment and having to believe the Gospel to be saved, I realized that you would never find a Protestant {who knows their faith} saying someone could be saved without believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Just does not compute. That is THE main Gospel message. But I have run into so much Indifferentism from Catholics I know personally and even a bit here. Most of it traces back to Vatican II and what the person thinks came out of that. It's serious and compromises the Gospel message.

Obviously I think it's serious enough that I left CC because I did not want to be associated with Indifferentism in any way, shape or form. In John 3:18 Jesus told us those that don't believe in Him are condemned already. If we ever lose that message to the world, the witness of Christianity and salvation is lost.

Note, these comments are not meant to start a debate. And, I'm certainly not saying all Catholics have this philosophy- far from it. It's just that in the Apologetics room, everyone starts threads about what Protestants do wrong and what they "don't get". This topic stands out to me as what Protestants get right- there is no infiltrated Indifferentism. One believes the Gospel and is saved, or one doesn't believe the Gospel and is not saved. There's only one Way.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:03 pm 
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Quote:
This topic stands out to me as what Protestants get right- there is no infiltrated Indifferentism


What're you talking about? Protestantism IS indifferentism. Remember that whole invisible Church thingie?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:30 pm 
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Catholic Cadet wrote:
Quote:
This topic stands out to me as what Protestants get right- there is no infiltrated Indifferentism


What're you talking about? Protestantism IS indifferentism. Remember that whole invisible Church thingie?


What Pax and I are talking about is Indifferentism with a capital "I". Like he said, that means those that believe you can be saved following any religion. For example, doesn't matter if you are a Jew, Muslim, Christian, Buddist, etc.

Protestants do not believe every religion will be saved- only those that believe in the Gospel as outlined in the New Testament. That eliminates those that don't believe Jesus is Lord (Jews, Muslims, Buddists, etc, etc). It's talked about at almost every service- I've never met a Protestant that thinks someone can be saved without believing in Jesus. I can't say the same for the Catholics I've met- the percentage is pretty high for those that believe the CC changed it's position after Vatican II and that Jews, Muslims, anyone who does good, will be saved "because God is a God of Love".

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:33 pm 
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Quote:
It's talked about at almost every service- I've never met a Protestant that thinks someone can be saved without believing in Jesus


I have.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:01 am 
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By protestants thiking someone can be saved without Jesus, do you mean the Jewish will be saved since they belive in God (who is Yaweh), though they do not believe Jeuss is their saviour and messiah?


So by inddiferentism here, do you mean differences in belives, practicies, doctrines, etc between protestants and Cahtolics too and portestants not with the "truye" way of hte cahtolic Church? not meaning to offend anyone with what I aksed. Just, I'm still a little bit confused here.

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 Post subject: Pax, you and I agree muchly! :)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:38 pm 
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pax wrote:
By definition, Religious Indifferentism is that false belief which says men can be saved by following any religion whatsoever.
Syncretism --the combining of different religions-- is an entirely different
abomination, as is Relativism ("true for you, not for me").


Pax, thou have spoken words of gold in frames of silver.

Pax, I think "true for you, not for me" is only one brick in the foundation of both Indifferentism and Syncretism. There are other bricks, such as:
"x true for you, y true for me = x & y will be considered equally true"
"x is false for both of us = x just might be true for somebody out thar"
...and so on.

Pax, perhaps our battle against the forces of relativism begins with a solid definition of religion, faith, entity and so on.
If our definition of The Faith is different from the relativists, we progess not a step until a common ground is reached -- hopefully, it's God's definition.

Roland
ps: come and see http://p097.ezboard.com/bstollerusa :)


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 Post subject: Re: Pax, you and I agree muchly! :)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:03 pm 
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stollerusa wrote:
Pax, perhaps our battle against the forces of relativism begins with a solid definition of religion, faith, entity and so on.


There is only one true religion: The holy Roman Catholic Religion.

There is only one true faith: The holy Roman Catholic Faith.

There is only one entity which is the pillar and foundation of the truth: The holy Roman Catholic Church.

Anything else is relativism.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:54 pm 
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I disagree with your definition of one true [religion, faith & entity].

However, we are not in apologetics, and since there is no way to reach common-ground against the forces of the God of this world -- I'll let it go :)

See ya somewhere! :)

Roland
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:03 pm 
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MySavingGrace, who is your question directed to? I don't know whose post you are referring to.

Protestants certainly don't think anyone can be saved without believing in Jesus (Jews included).


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