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 Post subject: What's all the hubbub?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:24 pm 
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What's the skinny on orthadox catholic churches? I've gotten some feeling that there is tension between orthadox and non-orthadox catholics. Are we also permitted to recieve communion with them? I hear they don't allow non-orthadox catholics to recieve Eucharist. I assume so, but are they considered catholic? What's the deal?

EDIT* I'm confused, are "orthadox" and "eastern" (and/or "byzantine")synonymous?


Last edited by Turbo on Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:27 pm 
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What do you mean by "non-orthadox"? Churches that reject the authority of the Magisterium? If so, then I don't believe I would want to attend in the first place.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:30 pm 
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well we talk about the "russian orthadox church" and the "greek orthadox church" why aren't we the "roman orthadox church?" What's different about them?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:35 pm 
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Turbo wrote:
well we talk about the "russian orthadox church" and the "greek orthadox church" why aren't we the "roman orthadox church?" What's different about them?


Ah, then I will allow someone more educated on such matters to explain the reasons.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:38 pm 
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Found some info:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06772a.htm

The name Orthodox Church is generally used to distinguish those of the Greek Rite who are not in communion with the Holy See. It is a name common to the official designation of both Churches of the Greek Rite, but the schismatic or dissenting Churches lay great stress upon the word Orthodox, and its implied meaning of correctness of doctrine, while the Uniat Churches lay equal emphasis upon the word Catholic. Hence these divisions of the Greek Church are respectively called the "Greek Orthodox" and the "Greek Catholic" for convenience in designation. The Greek Orthodox Church is now well established in America, and nearly every city of considerable size has one or more churches of the various nationalities belonging to that communion. There is no unity among them nor any obedience to a central authority; they conform to the general usages and discipline of the Byzantine Rite, but look to their respective Holy Synods in their home countries for governing authority and direction. Seven nationalities have their churches here, using the Old Slavonic, the Greek, the Arabic, and the Rumanian as their liturgical languages and of these the Russian is the oldest and best established. ...

there's tons more info found at that link.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:50 pm 
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ah, thank you. So orthodox means they don't recognize the bishop of rome? Now I'm really confused. If, byzantine catholics are in communion with the pope, why are they nor roman catholic? I know that sounds pompous or whatever, but why the distinction? (I know I asked this in another thread :roll: )


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:36 am 
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The 'eastern rite' cathlolics are in union with Rome & the Pope and have their own bishops & cardinals (including those who recently elected Pope Benedict XV1).

An example of this is Ukranian Rite Catholics.

They have their own liturgy - different to the Novo Ordo the Roman Catholics use

ie not just in a different language ( roman catholic priests say the mass in english, spanish, polish etc) but a differnet liturgy altogether - closer to the orthodox christians (eg greek orthodox).

They also allow married priests (like the Orthodox) but not married bishops/cardinals.

her is a link to the Ukranian rite diocese in Lviv:

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dlviv.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:41 am 
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Turbo wrote:
ah, thank you. So orthodox means they don't recognize the bishop of rome? Now I'm really confused. If, byzantine catholics are in communion with the pope, why are they nor roman catholic? I know that sounds pompous or whatever, but why the distinction? (I know I asked this in another thread :roll: )

Roman Catholics aren't the only Catholics just the most numerous. Our liturgical tradition grew out of the Church at Rome or the Latin Rite. The Eastern Rite Catholics have their own liturgical traditions. We share a common faith and recognize the pope. We are all Catholics in full communion with Rome.

The Eastern Orthodox are not Catholic. They do not recognize the authority of the pope. They share the same liturgical tradition as the Eastern Rite Catholics though which is where much of the confusion lies.

Eastern Rite and Latin Rite (Roman) Catholics can receive communion at any Catholic Mass/Liturgy since we are all Catholics. Catholics may receive communion at an Orthodox Church in emergencies. However the Orthodox do not allow Catholics to receive communion except under special circumstances (ie. weddings). The Orthodox Church does not allow Orthodox to receive communion at a Catholic Mass but the Catholic Church does allow them to if they wish to disobey their Church. Protestants may not recieve communion at any Catholic or Orthodox Church and Catholics and Orthodox may not receive "communion" at Protestant services.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:20 am 
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ye110man wrote:
Turbo wrote:
ah, thank you. So orthodox means they don't recognize the bishop of rome? Now I'm really confused. If, byzantine catholics are in communion with the pope, why are they nor roman catholic? I know that sounds pompous or whatever, but why the distinction? (I know I asked this in another thread :roll: )


Roman Catholics aren't the only Catholics just the most numerous. Our liturgical tradition grew out of the Church at Rome or the Latin Rite. The Eastern Rite Catholics have their own liturgical traditions. We share a common faith and recognize the pope. We are all Catholics in full communion with Rome.


The infallible teaching of the Church is that the Mystical Body of Christ and the holy Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing [Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi]. Therefore, Roman Catholics are all Catholics in full communion with Rome. We in the West are commonly known as Latin Rite Catholics.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:11 pm 
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Oh...so if you're in communion with Rome, you're a roman catholic. And roman catholics are divided from there into latin and byzantine, etc. ?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:18 pm 
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Quote:
Oh...so if you're in communion with Rome, you're a roman catholic. And roman catholics are divided from there into latin and byzantine, etc. ?


That's pretty much it. If I were you, I would suggest visiting an eastern right catholic church (the liturgy is amazing!). Also, while you're there, ask the priest about eastern rite catholic churches. Most are very eager to answer questions. However, you may want to make sure that the church you're at is eastern rite catholic and not eastern orthodox. Simply ask the priest to find out if the church sign doesn't say.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:23 pm 
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somebody needs to tell Anastasios about this, he's eastern orthodox.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:21 am 
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There are about 20 Orthodox Churches. Each Orthodox Church has a counterpart Church that is in communion with Rome; we call these Eastern Catholic.
Examples: Greek Orthodox and Greek Catholic
Russian Orthodox and Russian Catholic
Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholic.

Each Catholic counterpart may call itself Eastern Catholic or by its specific name (Coptic Catholic for instance). The term "Rite" is outdated and no longer used as it connotated simply a different Mass and not a distinct liturgical and cultural (and even canonical tradtition). Appropriate terms for today are "Particular Churches" or "Local Churches." Also, despite Pope Pius XII's (uninfallible) encyclical, Eastern Catholics do not call themselves Roman Catholics, but simply call themselves Eastern Catholics (Orthodox often call them Uniates but this is now seen as polemical).

For more info on Eastern Catholics see www.byzcath.org
For more info on Orthodox see the link in my signature or www.oca.org


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:03 am 
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Turbo wrote:
Oh...so if you're in communion with Rome, you're a roman catholic. And roman catholics are divided from there into latin and byzantine, etc. ?

As I have said and Anastasios has confirmed but pax refuses to ever accept, not all Catholics are Roman Catholic. A Byzantine Catholic who is in communion with Rome will never consider himself a Roman Catholic.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:13 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
Turbo wrote:
Oh...so if you're in communion with Rome, you're a roman catholic. And roman catholics are divided from there into latin and byzantine, etc. ?

As I have said and Anastasios has confirmed but pax refuses to ever accept, not all Catholics are Roman Catholic. A Byzantine Catholic who is in communion with Rome will never consider himself a Roman Catholic.


Actually this is just semantics. The Western Church is called, properly, the Latin Church.

Roman is confusing because the Church often calls the Latin Church Roman "as when she speaks of the Holy Roman Church, the mistress and mother of all Churches" but she also calls the whoe Church, including the East Roman

From Pius XII

If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church [12] - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression "the Mystical Body of Christ" - an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers.



Vatican I uses Roman both to refer to te Latin Church and the whole

Article 12 of the Tridentine Creed as presented by Vatican I

I acknowledge the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all the Churches

And Vatican I most often uses it in this sense, of the particular, Latin Church. But sometimes it seems to mean the whole

The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church believes and acknowledges that there is one true and living God, creator and lord of heaven and earth, almighty, eternal, immeasurable, incomprehensible, infinite in will, understanding and every perfection.


Equivocation, you got to love it

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