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 Post subject: The Mystical Body of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:30 pm 
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Pope Pius XII, in Mystici Corporis Christi, clealry teaches the Mystical Body of Christ and the holy Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.

Further, he says in Humanum Genus, this teaching is a doctrine, so defined by the Magisterium, to whom alone the authentic interpretation of the Faith is given.

How, then, is it possible for some here to say the Church now teaches something different?

Is that not a sin against faith in the indefectability of the Church to say as much?

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:37 pm 
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The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate Churches or Rites.

Orientalium Ecclesiarum VATICAN II

Solemnly Promulgated by His Holiness Paul VI
Nov. 21, 1964 (same day as Lumen Gentium)

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 Post subject: Re: The Mystical Body of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:50 pm 
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pax wrote:
Pope Pius XII, in Mystici Corporis Christi, clealry teaches the Mystical Body of Christ and the holy Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.

Further, he says in Humanum Genus, this teaching is a doctrine, so defined by the Magisterium, to whom alone the authentic interpretation of the Faith is given.

How, then, is it possible for some here to say the Church now teaches something different?

Is that not a sin against faith in the indefectability of the Church to say as much?


Pax, are all those who call themselves Catholic part of the mystical body of Christ?

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: The Mystical Body of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:07 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:
pax wrote:
Pope Pius XII, in Mystici Corporis Christi, clealry teaches the Mystical Body of Christ and the holy Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.

Further, he says in Humanum Genus, this teaching is a doctrine, so defined by the Magisterium, to whom alone the authentic interpretation of the Faith is given.

How, then, is it possible for some here to say the Church now teaches something different?

Is that not a sin against faith in the indefectability of the Church to say as much?


Pax, are all those who call themselves Catholic part of the mystical body of Christ?

FJ


The definition of "a Catholic" was just given to you by PED.

Catholics are "the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government."

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mystical Body of Christ
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:32 am 
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OOPS! I made a major feux pas here. I put the link for Humanum Genus, an Encyclical Letter by Pope Leo XIII on Freemasonry, instead of the link for Humani Generis, the Encyclical Letter from Pope Pius XII that I was referring to. My bad. Here is the correction:

Pope Pius XII, in Mystici Corporis Christi, clealry teaches the Mystical Body of Christ and the holy Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.

Further, he says in Humani Generis, this teaching is a doctrine, so defined by the Magisterium, to whom alone the authentic interpretation of the Faith is given.

How, then, is it possible for some here to say the Church now teaches something different?

Is that not a sin against faith in the indefectability of the Church to say as much?

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:10 pm 
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"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Pax, why do you continuously refuse to tell us how your beliefs are consistant with the one above from UR? Others have said that they agree or disagree with it. It's time you got off that fence.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:50 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Pax, why do you continuously refuse to tell us how your beliefs are consistant with the one above from UR? Others have said that they agree or disagree with it. It's time you got off that fence.

Do you believe Vatican II contradict itself?

The decree on the Eastern Churches is pretty clear who is to be considered "in"

An imperfect communion is not the same as being in the Church, or saying that people are in the Body outside of the Church. Even St. Jerome aknowledged some connection.. indeed that connection is in part had by the fact that they are bound to the Church and her laws through baptism and owe obedience

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:42 pm 
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I am asking anyone to provide an explination of Unitatis Redintegratio which states that Protestants are members of the Body of Christ. Thus far everyone has refused.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:44 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
I am asking anyone to provide an explination of Unitatis Redintegratio which states that Protestants are members of the Body of Christ. Thus far everyone has refused.

Who says Protestants are justified by faith in baptism? Read my sig line... it is from the Summa

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Last edited by Pro Ecclesia Dei on Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:03 pm 
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It's also called the Soooma in some circles. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:25 am 
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ye110man wrote:
I am asking anyone to provide an explination of Unitatis Redintegratio which states that Protestants are members of the Body of Christ. Thus far everyone has refused.


That is because Protestants are not members of the Body of Christ. A child who receives a valid baptism is a member of the holy Roman Catholic Church. Remember? There is only one baptism. Mortal sin cannot dislodge them from their exalted position. Heresy and schism are what dislodge them from their exalted position. An adult who receives a valid baptism, whose intent is to remain outside the holy Roman Catholic Church and to deny her teachings on even one point, receives no sanctifying grace by being baptized. They cannot be made a member of the Body of Christ for they have willfully refused membership in the Body of Christ. That is the official position of the Church. We have shown you the teaching from many Councils and Popes --even from the writings of V2 itself!-- but you refuse to accept the teaching. You are like a Protestant who has "discovered" a teaching by reading the Scriptures without the proper guidance, and no amount of scholarly research or logic or reason is going to dissuade him from it.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:03 pm 
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It's like talking to a brick wall. pax, just state that you cannot respond to Unitatis Redintegratio, and let's be done with it. Stop ignoring it and accusing me of refusing to accept Church teaching. I have been doing nothing but quoting Church teaching.
So for the 10th time, respond to Unitatis Redintegratio or just humbly refrain from posting attacks on Church teaching.

Torquemada, OP wrote:
Who says Protestants are justified by faith in baptism?a

Vatican II does.

"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:14 pm 
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I do not see that it says that.

Often the prima facie sense of magisterial documents is not the correct one... this is why it is said that Vatican II never issued any dogmatic definitions, ehich are generally more clear then pronouncements that belong to the Ordinary Magisterium.

Since Vatican II also said (as is dogma) that the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ and that it "is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government" I am forced to reconcile the two statements. The only way I see of doing this is by saying that heretics and schismatics have no faith.

Now it is true that all who are baptised are brought into the Catholic Church except when they join a heretic or schismatic community at the same time. I guess an important distinction is called for

A formal heretic or schismatic (meaning guilty of the sin) cannot be a member of Christ's Body, though connect to it through baptism.

A material heretic or schismatic could be, but only because they would be non-visible Catholics so to speak and innocent on any sin against the Faith or unity.

My though is founded on St. Thomas Aquinas here

I answer that, Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith.

The reason of this is that the species of every habit depends on the formal aspect of the object, without which the species of the habit cannot remain. Now the formal object of faith is the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth. Consequently whoever does not adhere, as to an infallible and Divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth manifested in Holy Writ, has not the habit of faith, but holds that which is of faith otherwise than by faith. Even so, it is evident that a man whose mind holds a conclusion without knowing how it is proved, has not scientific knowledge, but merely an opinion about it. Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/300503.htm

So the Church gives the benefit of the doubt, since these persons are born into these heretic and schismatic communities, that they are without sin in this regard.

So can that be agreed upon? Any formal heretic or schismatic is separated from the Body. One who errs in good faith, though they may not be legally recognised as Catholic, do not separate themselves. The Church assumes, because of most having been born into these communities, that they are not formal heretics or schismatic... but this is a benefit of the doubt, pedagogical not doctrinal

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:07 am 
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ye110man wrote:
It's like talking to a brick wall. pax, just state that you cannot respond to Unitatis Redintegratio, and let's be done with it. Stop ignoring it and accusing me of refusing to accept Church teaching. I have been doing nothing but quoting Church teaching.
So for the 10th time, respond to Unitatis Redintegratio or just humbly refrain from posting attacks on Church teaching.


On the contrary, it is you who cannot deal with the constant and universal teaching of the Church on this matter.

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/index.html

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/lumen.gen

14. This holy Council first of all turns its attention to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself on scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.

Fully incorporated into the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who--by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion--are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but "in body" not "in heart."[12] All children of the Church should
nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged.[13]

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/unitatis.red

In order to establish this His holy Church everywhere in the world till the end of time, Christ entrusted to the College of the Twelve the task of teaching, ruling and sanctifying.[10] Among their number He selected Peter, and after his confession of faith determined that on him He would build His Church. Also to Peter He promised the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[11] and after His profession of love, entrusted all His sheep to him to be confirmed in faith[12] and shepherded in perfect unity.[13] Christ Jesus Himself was forever to remain the chief cornerstone[14] and
shepherd of our souls.[15]

Jesus Christ, then, willed that the apostles and their successors the bishops with Peter's successor at their head should preach the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments, and rule the Church in love. It is thus, under the action of the Holy Spirit, that Christ wills His people to increase, and He perfects His people's fellowship in unity: in their confessing the one faith, celebrating divine worship in common, and keeping the fraternal harmony of the family of God.

The Church, then, is God's only flock; it is like a standard lifted high for the nations to see it:[16] for it serves all mankind through the Gospel of peace[17] as it makes its pilgrim way in hope toward the goal of the fatherland above.[18]

This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, the Holy Spirit energizing its various functions. It is a mystery that finds its highest exemplar and source in the unity of the Persons of the Trinity: the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, one God. ...

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.

We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.

This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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