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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:12 pm 
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phmary wrote:
pro-:
I addmit i had typo sometimes and I didn't check, that was not what I concluded you are a ego person. I can see you are the type of person who can't take other people's idea which disagrees with yours. That also was called "shallow mind".


This isn't a matter of typos, unless you have a really, really bad keyboard
Quote:
I still firmly believe that you are wrong on this one :
quote:

[all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; ]

Those are the words of the Church, not mine. They are from the Ecumenical Council of Florence.

It is not a matter of a shallow mind. I understand your point. I must reject it, as a Catholic. I would be a heretic and damn myself if I did not. You might be just misinformed, but I know what the Church teaches.

We are saved by the grace of God alone which is gratuitious. Only by this grace are we friendd of God. We are born enemies of God.

As Catholics we have a duty to evagelise and baptise all nations. To believe that other religions are salvic and act on this is to commit a grave injustice. We should of course have charity and civil tolerance towards our neighbours, regardless of their religion. But their can be no doctrinal tolerance. Christ is the Truth, the Way and the Life

Just remember what the Gospels say:

Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest. And how can we know the way?

Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

The Church is His Body. Without being in the Church, united with Christ, one cannot be saved.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this point

181 "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

Now, btw. I have never been accused of having a shallow mind. I have been accused of rigidity, a closed mind, but never a shallow one.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:15 pm 
pax:
I don't know if Medjugorja is bogus or not, I sometimes have doublt on it as well . I have seen one of those 3 visionaries who lives in New Jersy. His name is Ivan(?). He came down here my area and did some prayer. I certainly have doulbt on his side of vision. Fake or True, everyone can descern it by himself through Holy Spirit.

What "more proof" do you mean? can you give us some examples to enlighten us.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:26 pm 
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BTW, I still have absolutely no idea what the term "ego person" means

Ego is Latin for the pronoun "I"

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:02 pm 
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phmary wrote:
pax:
I don't know if Medjugorja is bogus or not, I sometimes have doublt on it as well . I have seen one of those 3 visionaries who lives in New Jersy. His name is Ivan(?). He came down here my area and did some prayer. I certainly have doulbt on his side of vision. Fake or True, everyone can descern it by himself through Holy Spirit.


The Holy Spirit does not guide one person to believe something, and then guide another person to reject that same something. He is not the Spirit of relativism. He is the Spirit of Truth. You have no authority to interpret these visions and apparitions. Only the Magisterium of the Church has that authority. In any event, whatever is revealed by God through His Mother can in no way depart from what God has revealed through His Bride. The Bride has told us a thousand times there is no salvation outside of herself. It is therefore absurd to imagine the Mother would tell us differently. After all, do they not both speak from the same Source?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:16 pm 
pax, you did not answer my question. I asked you to explain what proof you have to conclude Mejugory is bogus. My priest said chuch hasn't approved it yet, and they are still waiting for some prophecy to come true. They didn't say it was bogus, only the church hasn't appove it yet. Our Lady had appeared in many places, in Korea, in Japen, in Taiwan, in Spain, in Mexico, in ....etc. Bogus? I don't think so. But....


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:38 pm 
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phmary wrote:
pax, you did not answer my question. I asked you to explain what proof you have to conclude Mejugory is bogus. My priest said chuch hasn't approved it yet, and they are still waiting for some prophecy to come true. They didn't say it was bogus, only the church hasn't appove it yet. Our Lady had appeared in many places, in Korea, in Japen, in Taiwan, in Spain, in Mexico, in ....etc. Bogus? I don't think so. But....

If they claim heretical messages, yes it is bogus. The message you reported was heretical, so if that is what the visionaries claim Mary said, the apparition is bogus

Any apparition that winds up with messages contrary to what the Church teaches is bogus. Even authentic apparitions do not, however, add anything to public revelation and are no basis for doctrine

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:09 pm 
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Technicoid wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Note the qualification, "Before the coming of the Lord..". As the Church teaches, philosophy is impossible to justify men (philosophy didn't justify men in before either, but I understand what Clement is trying to say). The use of good reason has always been a prerequisite for coming to the faith, but again, you are reading to much into the text, there is nothing about salvation outside the Church.


I'm not disputing that "salvation outside the Church" is possible. The point is just what the phrase "no salvation outside the Church" means. I can't answer that question, but it's clear that some of the ECF believed that people who were ignorant of Christ prior to His coming could still be saved. I don't see any reason to believe that this changed once Christ came, died, and rose from the dead. However, I agree with Pro Ecclesia Dei that other factors are involved.


The common teaching is that implicit faith was necessary for salvation prior to the coming of Christ and explicit faith is necessary afterwards. Note also, that even the greatest Saints of the Old Testament were not "saved", strictly speaking, they were detained Sheol or Limbo of the Fathers, the place of the dead that Christ descended to release the poor souls from prison. Not until Christ's work of Redemption was complete did those justified souls enter into the Beatific Vision. This fact should give us pause and consider how God deals with men and the working out of His infinite Wisdom.

As Pius XII lamented that there are those who reduce EENS to an empty and meaningless formula. We must not falsify this terrible dogma for it helps no one at all to do so, especially ourselves.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:11 pm 
Quote:

[....cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; ]

[Those are the words of the Church, not mine. They are from the Ecumenical Council of Florence.]

So those were a group of men wrote, and that was not true or in the bible either. I don't think Jesus ever said that. Bible had been interpreted into many different virsions , some were interpreted by men in the way for their own convinience or their own understanding level. So just taking piece of words as golden rule without thinking or do some research on it is dangerous.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:42 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
The common teaching is that implicit faith was necessary for salvation prior to the coming of Christ and explicit faith is necessary afterwards. Note also, that even the greatest Saints of the Old Testament were not "saved", strictly speaking, they were detained Sheol or Limbo of the Fathers, the place of the dead that Christ descended to release the poor souls from prison. Not until Christ's work of Redemption was complete did those justified souls enter into the Beatific Vision. This fact should give us pause and consider how God deals with men and the working out of His infinite Wisdom.

As Pius XII lamented that there are those who reduce EENS to an empty and meaningless formula. We must not falsify this terrible dogma for it helps no one at all to do so, especially ourselves.


We certainly want to avoid indifference. However, we also want to avoid the opposite extreme, which is also condemned (that is, Feeneyism). It seems to me that some folks exclude the middle on this discussion, which just happens to be where my position lies. As you wrote, "This fact should give us pause and consider how God deals with men and the working out of His infinite Wisdom." I put my faith in God's infinite mercy, as well as His infinite justness.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:21 am 
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Technicoid wrote:
Matthew wrote:
The common teaching is that implicit faith was necessary for salvation prior to the coming of Christ and explicit faith is necessary afterwards. Note also, that even the greatest Saints of the Old Testament were not "saved", strictly speaking, they were detained Sheol or Limbo of the Fathers, the place of the dead that Christ descended to release the poor souls from prison. Not until Christ's work of Redemption was complete did those justified souls enter into the Beatific Vision. This fact should give us pause and consider how God deals with men and the working out of His infinite Wisdom.

As Pius XII lamented that there are those who reduce EENS to an empty and meaningless formula. We must not falsify this terrible dogma for it helps no one at all to do so, especially ourselves.


We certainly want to avoid indifference. However, we also want to avoid the opposite extreme, which is also condemned (that is, Feeneyism). It seems to me that some folks exclude the middle on this discussion, which just happens to be where my position lies. As you wrote, "This fact should give us pause and consider how God deals with men and the working out of His infinite Wisdom." I put my faith in God's infinite mercy, as well as His infinite justness.


I understand what you are saying, and I can sympathize. I must say though that one cannot apply the concept of the "golden mean" when it is in reference to intellectual virtue and truth. That ideal only applies to the moral virtues. Thus, we must attempt to assent to the truth itself, in its proper significance, without compromise or attenuation, whether it seems extreme to us or not. It is impossible to find a mean regarding the sense and meaning of revealed truths; the absolute simplicity of the object betrays any attempt to mitigate the reality itself based upon merely human considerations of time, place and circumstance.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:58 am 
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Matthew wrote:
I must say though that one cannot apply the concept of the "golden mean" when it is in reference to intellectual virtue and truth. That ideal only applies to the moral virtues. Thus, we must attempt to assent to the truth itself, in its proper significance, without compromise or attenuation, whether it seems extreme to us or not. It is impossible to find a mean regarding the sense and meaning of revealed truths; the absolute simplicity of the object betrays any attempt to mitigate the reality itself based upon merely human considerations of time, place and circumstance.



Wonderful paragraph, Matthew. :clap: That ought to hang on a sign in front of the Lyceum like the one Plato had at the Academy. The only thing I'd add is that, as far as a protestant perspective goes, the components of the set 'Revealed Truths' is different from ours. They may hold to the ideal you articulated, but it's application would differ greatly. Secondly, if any golden mean can be applied here, it's in the quantity on the revealed truths themselves. If we imagine the "set of all knowledge" as being that which God understands to be true, then the "set of revealed truths" would just be a miniscule subset.....so miniscule as to be insignificant if we view the set of all knowledge as being infinite. God tells us only what we need to know, not what we want to know. In that sense, it'd be the height of hubris to take the 'set of revealed truths' and give them greater signifigance than the subset that they are. (I know you weren't arguing otherwise...just wanted to voice the point.)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:47 am 
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phmary wrote:
Quote:

[....cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; ]

[Those are the words of the Church, not mine. They are from the Ecumenical Council of Florence.]

So those were a group of men wrote, and that was not true or in the bible either. I don't think Jesus ever said that. Bible had been interpreted into many different virsions , some were interpreted by men in the way for their own convinience or their own understanding level. So just taking piece of words as golden rule without thinking or do some research on it is dangerous.
Huminity is the way to haven.


First off, is English your first language?

Secondly, these are the words of God's Church, the pillar and foundation of Truth according to thr bible

The Church is God's authority on earth. You dismiss it as a group of men?!

A Catholic must obey the Church... to reject her teaching is to cut oneself off from the Church and salvation. I stand by what I said. You statement above were Pelagianistic, universalist and against the Catholic Faith which comes to us from the apostles!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:48 pm 
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Max Majestic wrote:
Matthew wrote:
I must say though that one cannot apply the concept of the "golden mean" when it is in reference to intellectual virtue and truth. That ideal only applies to the moral virtues. Thus, we must attempt to assent to the truth itself, in its proper significance, without compromise or attenuation, whether it seems extreme to us or not. It is impossible to find a mean regarding the sense and meaning of revealed truths; the absolute simplicity of the object betrays any attempt to mitigate the reality itself based upon merely human considerations of time, place and circumstance.



Wonderful paragraph, Matthew. :clap: That ought to hang on a sign in front of the Lyceum like the one Plato had at the Academy. The only thing I'd add is that, as far as a protestant perspective goes, the components of the set 'Revealed Truths' is different from ours. They may hold to the ideal you articulated, but it's application would differ greatly. Secondly, if any golden mean can be applied here, it's in the quantity on the revealed truths themselves. If we imagine the "set of all knowledge" as being that which God understands to be true, then the "set of revealed truths" would just be a miniscule subset.....so miniscule as to be insignificant if we view the set of all knowledge as being infinite. God tells us only what we need to know, not what we want to know. In that sense, it'd be the height of hubris to take the 'set of revealed truths' and give them greater signifigance than the subset that they are. (I know you weren't arguing otherwise...just wanted to voice the point.)


I know what you are saying, Max, bit think about it. Why did God bother to give Moses 10 Commandments? Why did Jesus teach so many Beatitudes? The answer lies here: "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word which proceeds from the mouth of God." God delivered to the Church everything necessary for salvation. Not too much, and no too little. That is why the Church is so absolutely necessary for salvation. That is why Protestants are in such a delinquent position. They have indeed received many of these truths, but have rejected many of them.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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