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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:45 pm 
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Of course Protestants have strayed from the Church. I never said they were in full communion with her. However, they are in an imperfect communion, are members of the body of Christ, and are to be considered Christian brethren.
Do you agree that that's what UR says? And if so, do you believe that contradicts MA?

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:43 am 
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ye110man wrote:
Of course Protestants have strayed from the Church. I never said they were in full communion with her. However, they are in an imperfect communion, are members of the body of Christ, and are to be considered Christian brethren.
Do you agree that that's what UR says? And if so, do you believe that contradicts MA?


One is either in the Church or not in the Church. There is no "half-full" glasses regarding membership in the Catholic Church. You cannot chop divine revelation up into bits and pieces: its perfect simplicity does not allow it to be divided. The external separation of a person from the Catholic Church is indicative of their internal separation, not the other way around.

It is also extremely presumptious to imagine that all adult baptisms are not merely valid, but also fruitful. As Pax said, baptism is only the beginning; it merely elevates the soul to a supernatural potency. Actual grace is needed to reduce the potency to act and a person who adheres to heresy, even unknowingly frustrates that reduction or supernaturally meritorious act; the internal contradiction is such that one must give either way. It follows from the idea of grace that a man who truly wishes to be saved will eventually find his way into the one fold of Christ; those who ignore their salvation or treat it lightly will not save their souls amidst the terrible darkness that pervades the world. You show me a man who is diligent about knowing what he must do to please God and I'll show you a man who will become catholic before he dies.

As Florence dogmatically stated, the sacraments are of no avail for salvation for those who do notn remain within the bosom of holy mother Church. This is a grave truth and to make any attenuations of it whatsoever is sinful.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:02 am 
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Matthew wrote:
ye110man wrote:
Of course Protestants have strayed from the Church. I never said they were in full communion with her. However, they are in an imperfect communion, are members of the body of Christ, and are to be considered Christian brethren.
Do you agree that that's what UR says? And if so, do you believe that contradicts MA?


One is either in the Church or not in the Church. There is no "half-full" glasses regarding membership in the Catholic Church. You cannot chop divine revelation up into bits and pieces: its perfect simplicity does not allow it to be divided. The external separation of a person from the Catholic Church is indicative of their internal separation, not the other way around.

It is also extremely presumptious to imagine that all adult baptisms are not merely valid, but also fruitful. As Pax said, baptism is only the beginning; it merely elevates the soul to a supernatural potency. Actual grace is needed to reduce the potency to act and a person who adheres to heresy, even unknowingly frustrates that reduction or supernaturally meritorious act; the internal contradiction is such that one must give either way. It follows from the idea of grace that a man who truly wishes to be saved will eventually find his way into the one fold of Christ; those who ignore their salvation or treat it lightly will not save their souls amidst the terrible darkness that pervades the world. You show me a man who is diligent about knowing what he must do to please God and I'll show you a man who will become catholic before he dies.

As Florence dogmatically stated, the sacraments are of no avail for salvation for those who do notn remain within the bosom of holy mother Church. This is a grave truth and to make any attenuations of it whatsoever is sinful.

""The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."" - CCC 838

"Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."" - CCC 1271


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 9:22 am 
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There is no contradiction between MA and UR or LG. The contradiction is rather between what the Church is really and truly teaching, and what you wish she would teach. It is reminiscent of Protestants who confuse the words of Scripture with their interpretation of Scripture.

Note the teaching on the necessity of full incorporation into the Church. Note how partial incorporation lacks the full benefit of the sacraments. Note how I do not pit one Church teaching against another as you do, but incorporate all teachings together into a doctrinal synthesis which neither denies the Fathers, Popes or Councils which comprise the constant and universal teaching of the Church. Note how you are attempting to make the Church teach something she has never taught before, and, in fact, has specifically taught against. And, finally, note how this will be my last entry in this thread.

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/index.html

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/lumen.gen

14. This holy Council first of all turns its attention to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself on scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.

Fully incorporated into the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who--by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion--are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but "in body" not "in heart."[12] All children of the Church should
nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged.[13]

http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/unitatis.red

In order to establish this His holy Church everywhere in the world till the end of time, Christ entrusted to the College of the Twelve the task of teaching, ruling and sanctifying.[10] Among their number He selected Peter, and after his confession of faith determined that on him He would build His Church. Also to Peter He promised the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[11] and after His profession of love, entrusted all His sheep to him to be confirmed in faith[12] and shepherded in perfect unity.[13] Christ Jesus Himself was forever to remain the chief cornerstone[14] and
shepherd of our souls.[15]

Jesus Christ, then, willed that the apostles and their successors the bishops with Peter's successor at their head should preach the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments, and rule the Church in love. It is thus, under the action of the Holy Spirit, that Christ wills His people to increase, and He perfects His people's fellowship in unity: in their confessing the one faith, celebrating divine worship in common, and keeping the fraternal harmony of the family of God.

The Church, then, is God's only flock; it is like a standard lifted high for the nations to see it:[16] for it serves all mankind through the Gospel of peace[17] as it makes its pilgrim way in hope toward the goal of the fatherland above.[18]

This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, the Holy Spirit energizing its various functions. It is a mystery that finds its highest exemplar and source in the unity of the Persons of the Trinity: the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, one God. ...

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.

We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.

This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:05 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
Matthew wrote:
ye110man wrote:
Of course Protestants have strayed from the Church. I never said they were in full communion with her. However, they are in an imperfect communion, are members of the body of Christ, and are to be considered Christian brethren.
Do you agree that that's what UR says? And if so, do you believe that contradicts MA?


One is either in the Church or not in the Church. There is no "half-full" glasses regarding membership in the Catholic Church. You cannot chop divine revelation up into bits and pieces: its perfect simplicity does not allow it to be divided. The external separation of a person from the Catholic Church is indicative of their internal separation, not the other way around.

It is also extremely presumptious to imagine that all adult baptisms are not merely valid, but also fruitful. As Pax said, baptism is only the beginning; it merely elevates the soul to a supernatural potency. Actual grace is needed to reduce the potency to act and a person who adheres to heresy, even unknowingly frustrates that reduction or supernaturally meritorious act; the internal contradiction is such that one must give either way. It follows from the idea of grace that a man who truly wishes to be saved will eventually find his way into the one fold of Christ; those who ignore their salvation or treat it lightly will not save their souls amidst the terrible darkness that pervades the world. You show me a man who is diligent about knowing what he must do to please God and I'll show you a man who will become catholic before he dies.

As Florence dogmatically stated, the sacraments are of no avail for salvation for those who do notn remain within the bosom of holy mother Church. This is a grave truth and to make any attenuations of it whatsoever is sinful.

""The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."" - CCC 838

"Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."" - CCC 1271


As I said, that is a presumptuous assertion and is foreign to catholic doctrine. I do not hold to the opinion of the new ecclesiology that parades around as dogma.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:39 pm 
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OK so Matthew admits that he disagrees with the Catechism. It's about time you do the same, pax. You cannot make it go away by ignoring it and building strawmen. Address the quotes I posted from UR and the Catechism, directly. Explain in your own words why you do not contradict them. Do not post irrelevent quotes of your own but address the quotes I posted alone.

Protestants are not fully incorporated into the Church. Well, duh! But they are imperfectly incorporated unlike non-Christians who are not incorporated at all. And so they are rightly called brethen and members of the body of Christ. Everyone should be full incorporated because the fullness of the sacramental life is found in the Catholic Church.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:54 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
OK so Matthew admits that he disagrees with the Catechism. It's about time you do the same, pax. You cannot make it go away by ignoring it and building strawmen. Address the quotes I posted from UR and the Catechism, directly. Explain in your own words why you do not contradict them. Do not post irrelevent quotes of your own but address the quotes I posted alone.

Protestants are not fully incorporated into the Church. Well, duh! But they are imperfectly incorporated unlike non-Christians who are not incorporated at all. And so they are rightly called brethen and members of the body of Christ. Everyone should be full incorporated because the fullness of the sacramental life is found in the Catholic Church.


As I said before, it is a myth to imagine that one can be "half-way-in" the Catholic Church. That's like saying someone is in a state of "half-grace". When dealing with formal causes of divine realities, you cannot prescind from the absolute simplicity of their source.

The formally articulated reason why we are being subjected to this opinion concerning ecclesiology is because certain powerful prelates wanted to introduce ecumenism into the life of the Church. This could not be done according to the old ecclesiology. Thus, for instance, we find an "ecumenical definition" of the Church of Christ as "subsisting in" the Catholic Church.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:17 am 
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Matthew wrote:
As I said before, it is a myth to imagine that one can be "half-way-in" the Catholic Church. That's like saying someone is in a state of "half-grace". When dealing with formal causes of divine realities, you cannot prescind from the absolute simplicity of their source.


You mean an "imperfect communion" with the Church is like "being a little bit pregnant"?

the Neener King wrote:
The formally articulated reason why we are being subjected to this opinion concerning ecclesiology is because certain powerful prelates wanted to introduce ecumenism into the life of the Church. This could not be done according to the old ecclesiology. Thus, for instance, we find an "ecumenical definition" of the Church of Christ as "subsisting in" the Catholic Church.


Just to lay this matter to rest once for all, where exactly was this reason formally articulated?

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:38 am 
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I believe I read it in Ut Unam Sint. Ratzinger and other "insider" Vatican officials have said as much in the past. Mortalium Animos said the opposite, though. He said Catholics cannot engage in such ecumenism (that was born outside the Church) because our doctrine on the nature of the Church disallows the ecclesiological premises that the pan-christians (ecumenists) use to initate the whole darn thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:36 am 
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Matthew wrote:
I believe I read it in Ut Unam Sint. Ratzinger and other "insider" Vatican officials have said as much in the past. Mortalium Animos said the opposite, though. He said Catholics cannot engage in such ecumenism (that was born outside the Church) because our doctrine on the nature of the Church disallows the ecclesiological premises that the pan-christians (ecumenists) use to initate the whole darn thing.


Let me take a stab at that false ecclesiology. The Church, it is erroneously stated, can be divided, is divided, and we must seek to bring it back to the oneness willed by Christ for her. The Church, it is further maintained with most egregious error, is now comprised of warring factions and sects, who agree on most major points of doctrine, and disagree on all else. The grave error of this opinion is that the promises made by Christ to forever dwell in His Church, and the promise of the Holy Spirit to forever guide her into all truth, have long since lost their efficacy. To say as much, Pope Pius XI warned us, is blasphemy. To put it bluntly, he is absolutely correct, there is no logical argument against his assertion, and those who maintain the errors stated above --whoever they are, or whatever positions of authority they may hold-- are blaspheming by putting forth this false ecclesiology.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:39 pm 
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Anyway,

no matter what our relationship is with non cathoic christians we should promote Ecumanism in raching out to the non believers and those who have fallen away from the faith

eg Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham) came here and held large gatherings.

Our Archbishop encourgaed catholics to be part of the praying teams there and I and others were part of teams praying with lapsed catholics who wanted to rededicate themselves to Christ and we encouraged them to return to the catholic faith

Ecumanism in action !

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