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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:39 am 
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I may be wrong, but in regards to the original question, it would seem that this is specifically what Mortalium Animos is referring to and expressly forbids.

But I may not be fully grasping the nuanced application of aforementioned encyclical.

In Peace
Dan

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:16 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
So go pray with your siblings. I think the hyper-anti-hyper-ecumenicalism going around these days particular in this forum has gone far enough.


I would read the following before engaging in such a reckless endeavor.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

They are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. They worship a false Christ. "What communion can there be between truth and falsehood?"

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:29 am 
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pax wrote:
ye110man wrote:
So go pray with your siblings. I think the hyper-anti-hyper-ecumenicalism going around these days particular in this forum has gone far enough.


I would read the following before engaging in such a reckless endeavor.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

They are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. They worship a false Christ. "What communion can there be between truth and falsehood?"


Cardinal Walter Kasper has answered this problem between the Encyclical Letter Mortalium Animos by Pope Pius XI, dated January 6, 1928 and the Second Vatican Council decree Unitatis Redintegratio:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCU40UR.HTM

Quoted from this as printed in L'Osservatore Romano, English edition, 25 February 2004:

Quote:
Thus, it is indisputable that the Council consciously went beyond the defensive and prohibitive assertions of Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos (1928) and, in this sense, made a qualitative leap. Understood in this way, tradition and innovation are not in opposition.


According to Pope Benedict XVI, Christians should have caritas christiana and they should refrain calling separated brothers and sisters directly as heretics. This Latin phrase is mentioned in the following:

AD GENTES DIVINITUS by Pope Paul VI

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:08 pm 
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Kasper? He rejects the Magisterium on this issue. He reject Dominus Iesus, remember?

I am not a Kasperite. And when did His Holiness say we should not call heretics heretics? What did he mean by that? If he meant that is speaking with them we should avoid using labels, however true, that would not be helpful but harmful, sure. If he meant the were not heretics, then why does he not rewrite theCatechism and Canon law?

Some real articles that show the VII did not contradict previous teaching that do so without rejecting that teaching

http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt9.html (concering religious liberty, rather than ecumenism directly)

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:26 pm 
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pax wrote:
ye110man wrote:
So go pray with your siblings. I think the hyper-anti-hyper-ecumenicalism going around these days particular in this forum has gone far enough.


I would read the following before engaging in such a reckless endeavor.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

They are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. They worship a false Christ. "What communion can there be between truth and falsehood?"

An imperfect communion.
Which Christ do Protestants worship? The 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity who is true God and true man and who was born of the Virgin Mary about 2005 years ago, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, and descended to the death and rose from the dead 3 days later then ascended into heaven?
Oh wait that's our Christ too!

"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:46 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Kasper? He rejects the Magisterium on this issue. He reject Dominus Iesus, remember?


Show me where he rejects the document Dominus Iesus.

Cardinal Kasper speaks to Jews on Dominus Iesus

I also found a discussion by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI about Dominus Iesus:

ANSWERS TO MAIN OBJECTIONS AGAINST DOMINUS IESUS

Interesting to say that Cardinal Kasper actually is a member of CDF as Cardinal Ratzinger asserted.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:59 pm 
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You cannot tell me you were unaware that Kasper shares a different "ecclesiology" than that of Dominus Jesus?

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/Ratzing ... ompilation

Shortly put, Kasper argues that the local Church takes precedence over the universal ontologically and historically. Ratzinger held that the universal Church took precedence... and Ratzinger is the one in agreement with Catholic teaching here

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:16 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
pax wrote:
ye110man wrote:
So go pray with your siblings. I think the hyper-anti-hyper-ecumenicalism going around these days particular in this forum has gone far enough.


I would read the following before engaging in such a reckless endeavor.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

They are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. They worship a false Christ. "What communion can there be between truth and falsehood?"

An imperfect communion.
Which Christ do Protestants worship? The 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity who is true God and true man and who was born of the Virgin Mary about 2005 years ago, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, and descended to the death and rose from the dead 3 days later then ascended into heaven?
Oh wait that's our Christ too!

"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio


This almost sounds indifferent. That Christ is not soveriegn. Jesus said "GO" into all the world and make disciples of all men! We got to "Go" to bring them in. Does being Protestant excuse us of our mission to bring them in as well? Not!

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:26 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
pax wrote:
And I am addressing those who are promoting the false belief the Church now teaches Protestants are somehow members of the Body of Christ.

You are addressing the Catholic Church then. Do you condemn Vatican II and the Catechism since you believe that they promote false beliefs?


There is a difference from Formal and Material heresy. The Church is staying within this truth. It is charity that the Church acknowleges those through no fault of their own are raised out side of the faith. The Catholic Church does not operate like the Church of Christ. We do not say that if your not Catholic your going to hell. Vatican II was clear about that, but you can't go to the other extreme as to say it doesn't matter what one believes as long as they do!

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:34 pm 
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catholic defender wrote:
This almost sounds indifferent. That Christ is not soveriegn. Jesus said "GO" into all the world and make disciples of all men! We got to "Go" to bring them in. Does being Protestant excuse us of our mission to bring them in as well? Not!

catholic defender wrote:
There is a difference from Formal and Material heresy. The Church is staying within this truth. It is charity that the Church acknowleges those through no fault of their own are raised out side of the faith. The Catholic Church does not operate like the Church of Christ. We do not say that if your not Catholic your going to hell. Vatican II was clear about that, but you can't go to the other extreme as to say it doesn't matter what one believes as long as they do!

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I said...
ye110man wrote:
Protestants are, by definition, material heretics at best and possibly formal heretics. The Orthodox are material schismatics at best and possibly formal heretics as well. There is only one true Faith and one true Church outside of which there is no salvation.

But you can't go to the extreme to say that Protestants are not fellow Christian brethren in the Body of Christ.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:39 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
catholic defender wrote:
This almost sounds indifferent. That Christ is not soveriegn. Jesus said "GO" into all the world and make disciples of all men! We got to "Go" to bring them in. Does being Protestant excuse us of our mission to bring them in as well? Not!

catholic defender wrote:
There is a difference from Formal and Material heresy. The Church is staying within this truth. It is charity that the Church acknowleges those through no fault of their own are raised out side of the faith. The Catholic Church does not operate like the Church of Christ. We do not say that if your not Catholic your going to hell. Vatican II was clear about that, but you can't go to the other extreme as to say it doesn't matter what one believes as long as they do!

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I said...
ye110man wrote:
Protestants are, by definition, material heretics at best and possibly formal heretics. The Orthodox are material schismatics at best and possibly formal heretics as well. There is only one true Faith and one true Church outside of which there is no salvation.

But you can't go to the extreme to say that Protestants are not fellow Christian brethren in the Body of Christ.


OK, but not on equal footing with the Authority of the Catholic Church! A Catholic who falls from the faith into any of these Protestant groups place themselves in spiritual mortal danger. It is a mortal sin to miss Mass even if a person rejects the Mass and prefers a counterfeit. A lot of Catholic families are dealing with this today and it is prophetic! Sad but true. Hang tough and make the Mass the center of your life! God bless!

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:34 am 
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desiree wrote:
I have read every single post, and have decided that I am still confused. :? Guess I *do* have a lot to learn!


Do not be confused, my dear, because yellowman and others pervert the teachings of the Church. They are spinning the words of V2 to make them say something they cannot possibly say.

This is the faith which you accepted: The holy Roman Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are one and the same thing (Pius XII). You cannot be a member of the Body of Christ if you refuse to submit to the divinely established leadership of the Pope (Boniface VIII). Those who refuse to submit to that divinely established leadership are scattered and disjointed. They have no share in either the Body or the Head, which is Christ (Pius XI).

This is the constant and universal teaching of the Church. Those who say differently are in open rebellion against their holy Mother the Church.

Pray the simple prayers of the Apostles: Lord, teach us to pray. Lord, increase our faith.

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:20 am 
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pax wrote:
desiree wrote:
I have read every single post, and have decided that I am still confused. :? Guess I *do* have a lot to learn!


Do not be confused, my dear, because yellowman and others pervert the teachings of the Church. They are spinning the words of V2 to make them say something they cannot possibly say.

This is the faith which you accepted: The holy Roman Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are one and the same thing (Pius XII). You cannot be a member of the Body of Christ if you refuse to submit to the divinely established leadership of the Pope (Boniface VIII). Those who refuse to submit to that divinely established leadership are scattered and disjointed. They have no share in either the Body or the Head, which is Christ (Pius XI).

This is the constant and universal teaching of the Church. Those who say differently are in open rebellion against their holy Mother the Church.

I did not spin. I quoted.
"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Please explain how your views are consistant with that?


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 2:18 pm 
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Reflecting on the difference in tone between Unitatis Redintegratio and Moritalium Animos I am reminded that...

Human nature is as surely made arrogant by consideration as it is awed by firmness.

-Greg

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 5:45 am 
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ye110man wrote:
pax wrote:
desiree wrote:
I have read every single post, and have decided that I am still confused. :? Guess I *do* have a lot to learn!


Do not be confused, my dear, because yellowman and others pervert the teachings of the Church. They are spinning the words of V2 to make them say something they cannot possibly say.

This is the faith which you accepted: The holy Roman Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are one and the same thing (Pius XII). You cannot be a member of the Body of Christ if you refuse to submit to the divinely established leadership of the Pope (Boniface VIII). Those who refuse to submit to that divinely established leadership are scattered and disjointed. They have no share in either the Body or the Head, which is Christ (Pius XI).

This is the constant and universal teaching of the Church. Those who say differently are in open rebellion against their holy Mother the Church.


I did not spin. I quoted.

"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Please explain how your views are consistant with that?


http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/unitatis.red

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals
or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which
Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born
again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that
unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church
proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the
all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the
means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings
of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the
head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all
should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.
This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever
growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's
gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily
arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem."

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

"For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_ ... ti_en.html

"If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church [12] - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression "the Mystical Body of Christ" - an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers."

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 1:04 pm 
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pax wrote:
http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/unitatis.red

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals
or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which
Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born
again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that
unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church
proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the
all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the
means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings
of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the
head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all
should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.
This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever
growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's
gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily
arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem."

That just confirms what I said.

pax wrote:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

"For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head."

This contradicts Unitatis Redintegratio and the Catechism. Regulations and understandings develop and change over time.

pax wrote:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

"If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church [12] - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression "the Mystical Body of Christ" - an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers."

This contradicts nothing I've said.

So it looks like I have Vatican II and the Catechism arguing for me and you ahve Mortalium Animos from 1928 arguing for you.


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:34 am 
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ye110man wrote:
pax wrote:
http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/unitatis.red

We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.


That just confirms what I said.


No. You said Protestants are members of the Body of Christ.

ye110man wrote:
pax wrote:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

"For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head."


This contradicts Unitatis Redintegratio and the Catechism. Regulations and understandings develop and change over time.


What Pius XI has said here is neither a regulation nor an understanding. It is a definition. V2 defines Protestants as "separated brethren." Since when does "separated" not mean "disunuted"? Ergo, the Pope concludes, they are not members of the Body of Christ. V2 agrees wholeheartedly. The Council Fathers proclaim the holy Roman Catholic Church to be "God's only flock."

ye110man wrote:
pax wrote:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

"If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church [12] - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression "the Mystical Body of Christ" - an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers."

This contradicts nothing I've said.

So it looks like I have Vatican II and the Catechism arguing for me and you have Mortalium Animos from 1928 arguing for you.


Truth cannot contradict truth.

If you believe the Pope, when exercising his office as supreme teacher of the faithful, can err in his teaching, then just say so. Are you going to continue to pit one Church teaching against another, and throw fuel on the Protestant fire? or will you harmonize these teachings and douse their flames with doctrinal clarity?

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:03 am 
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pax wrote:
No. You said Protestants are members of the Body of Christ.

And they are. Unitatis Redintegratio doesn't contradict that but confirms it.
"all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body"

pax wrote:
Truth cannot contradict truth.

If you believe the Pope, when exercising his office as supreme teacher of the faithful, can err in his teaching, then just say so. Are you going to continue to pit one Church teaching against another, and throw fuel on the Protestant fire? or will you harmonize these teachings and douse their flames with doctrinal clarity?

So let's see you try and do it.

"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Harmonize that with Mortalium Animos.


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 10:27 am 
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ye110man wrote:
"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Harmonize that with Mortalium Animos.

Interesting enough it says "have been justified by faith"... a formal heretic (not a material) certainly might be said to lack in this catergory

BTW Pax, do you have an Ott.?

Pius XII says (this is actually a poor translation, but it is the one on the Vatican website)


Quote:
Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.


This is the constant teaching from the Fathers. I agree they are Christian and in imperfect communion (there is even a dialogue from St. Jerome that says that much, Against the Luciferians)

So how is this statement from VII to be understood in light of tradition?

The document cites two other documents at this point, one of Florence, the other of St. Augustine

The first is from Session 8 of the Council of Florence (thus equal weightt with Vatican II and cannot contradict)

In the decree of Florence I can find precious little (why it is cited where it is I know not). All I see is how great it would be to bring back everyone to the Catholic Church in ecclesiatical union and then proceeding to lay down terms with the Armenians.

You can try your luck if you will

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#3

And the cite from Augustine seems lacking on New Advent (though the rest of the work is there). Perhaps God does not wish me to figure this out yet...

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:29 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
pax wrote:
No. You said Protestants are members of the Body of Christ.

And they are. Unitatis Redintegratio doesn't contradict that but confirms it.
"all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body"

pax wrote:
Truth cannot contradict truth.

If you believe the Pope, when exercising his office as supreme teacher of the faithful, can err in his teaching, then just say so. Are you going to continue to pit one Church teaching against another, and throw fuel on the Protestant fire? or will you harmonize these teachings and douse their flames with doctrinal clarity?

So let's see you try and do it.

"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect... But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Harmonize that with Mortalium Animos.


http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

Pope Pius XI wrote:
But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ.


Yes, those who receive a valid baptism are baptized into the holy Roman Catholic Church. Their unwillingness to submit to the Vicar of Christ, and the erroneous opinions they hold to and will not reform, are what separate them from the Church. Baptism is only the beginning.

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