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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:52 am 
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torn wrote:
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For instance, the reality of Hell, the immortality of the soul (it won't be annihilated), etc.

I believe in hell - I just don't believe that it's eternal, unless someone eternally chooses not to turn to God. But I don't believe God takes away the possibility for a person to turn to God. God is infinitely merciful, which means He doesn't cease to be merciful the moment a person dies.


torn if this is the case... when does the JUDGEMENT come in that is mentioned prominently in the bible, and through the authoritative teaching of the Church...

as has been pointed out to you many times...it is true that God is Merciful , but He is also a God of Justice.... and with death, that Justice comes into play, depending on how one responded to His Love and Mercy when they were here on earth to make a choice

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:09 am 
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SeanMc wrote:
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And I don't believe a soul can be annihilated (though I could be wrong).


I've thought about that and I don't know of any "official" answer, but since God is infinitely powerful and He can do whatever he wants, then God can destroy a soul.


I wondered about this for a long time as well. I pretty much came to the conclusion that a soul is an indestructible substance and that in making it, God has made for eternity. A soul which could be destroyed, would be a an indestructible substance which is at the same time destructible. Maybe our philosophical experts could elaborate more.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:49 am 
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God can certainly annihilate a soul if He chooses.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:18 am 
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God can certainly annihilate a soul if He chooses.

But it is heresy to say He would

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:02 pm 
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fs wrote:
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torn if this is the case... when does the JUDGEMENT come in that is mentioned prominently in the bible, and through the authoritative teaching of the Church...

Fs, I am confused about this. I note the word "the" in your question: "when does the JUDGEMENT come in that is mentioned prominently in the bible, and through the authoritative teaching of the Church...".

On the one hand we are told than when a person dies, God judges whether that soul goes to heaven, purgatory or hell. But we are also told that there will be a day of judgement sometime in the future when everyone will be judged. If some souls have already been condemned to suffer eternal torture in hell - and are currently suffering eternal torture in hell - and others are in purgatory with no possibility of going to hell, and others are in heaven with no possibility of going to hell, what's the point of God judging them all over again? God's decision won't be much of a surprise to any of them, at least not to those in heaven or hell.

So when exactly is it that we are judged? Is it as soon as we die - and consequently go to heaven, purgatory or hell - or is it when everyone is gathered together somewhere on the "day of judgement"?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:08 pm 
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So when exactly is it that we are judged? Is it as soon as we die - and consequently go to heaven, purgatory or hell - or is it when everyone is gathered together somewhere on the "day of judgement"?


Both.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:14 pm 
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bonaventure wrote:
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I wondered about this for a long time as well. I pretty much came to the conclusion that a soul is an indestructible substance and that in making it, God has made for eternity. A soul which could be destroyed, would be a an indestructible substance which is at the same time destructible

Do you agree that a soul which will never be in heaven, would not necessarily have to suffer eternal ongoing conscious torture? Could God not obliterate or somehow transform a soul's conscious awareness?

Do souls in limbo suffer eternal ongoing conscious torture?


I was hoping PED would answer the question I asked him:
Quote:
Just because a person doesn't go to heaven, doesn't mean a person necessarily has to suffer eternal torture. If that were the case, then limbo would be eternal torture. I'm sure God doesn't condemn unbaptised babies, and aborted unborn babies, to suffer eternal torture. Yet do they go to heaven, according to your beliefs?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:21 pm 
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They still go to hell, torn. Though they suffer no pain.

But they never ever suffer torture. Those who, well as God saith: the fire will not be quenched.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:03 pm 
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torn wrote:
fs wrote:
Quote:
torn if this is the case... when does the JUDGEMENT come in that is mentioned prominently in the bible, and through the authoritative teaching of the Church...

Fs, I am confused about this. I note the word "the" in your question: "when does the JUDGEMENT come in that is mentioned prominently in the bible, and through the authoritative teaching of the Church...".

On the one hand we are told than when a person dies, God judges whether that soul goes to heaven, purgatory or hell. But we are also told that there will be a day of judgement sometime in the future when everyone will be judged. If some souls have already been condemned to suffer eternal torture in hell - and are currently suffering eternal torture in hell - and others are in purgatory with no possibility of going to hell, and others are in heaven with no possibility of going to hell, what's the point of God judging them all over again? God's decision won't be much of a surprise to any of them, at least not to those in heaven or hell.

So when exactly is it that we are judged? Is it as soon as we die - and consequently go to heaven, purgatory or hell - or is it when everyone is gathered together somewhere on the "day of judgement"?


bonaventure speaks truthfully...

and i'm about 99% sure i have mentioned this to you before ...but since i got sucked in again... i'll do it one more time... there is the particular judgement when you die... and you go to heaven (doubtful) , purgatory (hopefully) , or hell (regretfully)....

at the end of time, at the coming of our Lord and the resurrection of the body, there is the general judgement... where everyone will make an accounting of their life and will be divided into the sheep and goat contingent described in Matthew 25...

from http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga2.htm

Quote:
Here each person will have to account for his conduct and the deepest secrets of his soul will come to light. How well each person has responded to the prompting of God's grace will be made clear. Our attitude and actions toward our neighbor will reflect how well we have loved our Lord. "As often as you did it for one of My least brothers, you did it for Me" (Mt 25:41).

Our Lord will judge us accordingly. For those who have died and already have faced the particular judgment, their judgment will stand. Those living at the time of the Second Coming will receive judgment. Those who have rejected the Lord in this life, who have sinned mortally,, who have no remorse for sin and do not seek forgiveness, will have condemned themselves to hell for all eternity. "By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love (Catechism, No. 678). The souls of the righteous will enter heavenly glory and enjoy the beatific vision and those who need purification will undergo it.



if you wish to read about your particular judgement in more detail...go here

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga1.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:01 pm 
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They still go to hell, torn. Though they suffer no pain.

But they never ever suffer torture.

So let me be clear about this: You are saying it's possible for a soul to go to hell and not suffer any pain?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:22 pm 
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PED, could you please answer my question?

PED wrote:
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They still go to hell, torn. Though they suffer no pain.

But they never ever suffer torture.


Are you saying it's possible for a soul to go to hell and not suffer any pain?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:39 pm 
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torn wrote:
PED, could you please answer my question?

PED wrote:
Quote:
They still go to hell, torn. Though they suffer no pain.

But they never ever suffer torture.


Are you saying it's possible for a soul to go to hell and not suffer any pain?

YES!!!!

It is even possible to have natural bliss in hell... but this would be for those who die in original sin only... any actual sin on the soul when you die would cause suffering

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:37 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
torn wrote:
PED, could you please answer my question?

PED wrote:
Quote:
They still go to hell, torn. Though they suffer no pain.

But they never ever suffer torture.


Are you saying it's possible for a soul to go to hell and not suffer any pain?

YES!!!!

It is even possible to have natural bliss in hell... but this would be for those who die in original sin only... any actual sin on the soul when you die would cause suffering


Sad thing is that many will have a rude awakening when they wake up in hell. Or find themselves there!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:18 am 
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Are you saying it's possible for a soul to go to hell and not suffer any pain?


YES!!!!

It is even possible to have natural bliss in hell... but this would be for those who die in original sin only... any actual sin on the soul when you die would cause suffering

So God has control over who in hell suffers eternal torture and who doesn't suffer eternal torture - is that correct? (If not, who has control of it?)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:23 am 
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torn, do you believe that Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead? That His kingdom will have no end? Where do those go who do not make it to His kingdom?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:46 pm 
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torn, do you believe that Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead? That His kingdom will have no end?

Probably not in the way you believe it.

Quote:
Where do those go who do not make it to His kingdom?

There are several possibilities.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:19 am 
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torn wrote:
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torn, do you believe that Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead? That His kingdom will have no end?

Probably not in the way you believe it.

would you like to enlighten us as to what you believe?
Quote:
Where do those go who do not make it to His kingdom?

There are several possibilities.

would you like to enlighten us as to what those are?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:54 am 
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Probably not in the way you believe it.


Quote:
would you like to enlighten us as to what you believe?

Not really.

Quote:
There are several possibilities.


Quote:
would you like to enlighten us as to what those are?

I've already pointed out these possibilities before (in this thread, I think). It's tiresome to keep having to repeat myself. I'm just pointing out that there are other possibilities.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:12 pm 
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torn wrote:
Quote:
torn, do you believe that Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead? That His kingdom will have no end?

Probably not in the way you believe it.

Quote:
Where do those go who do not make it to His kingdom?

There are several possibilities.


In order to be a Catholic you have to believe it the way the Church teaches it, can't divert from the Lord! Not even if your from Ireland!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:16 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
torn wrote:
PED, could you please answer my question?

PED wrote:
Quote:
They still go to hell, torn. Though they suffer no pain.

But they never ever suffer torture.


Are you saying it's possible for a soul to go to hell and not suffer any pain?

YES!!!!

It is even possible to have natural bliss in hell... but this would be for those who die in original sin only... any actual sin on the soul when you die would cause suffering


I don't get it. What would be the point of having Hell then. Why not let them into heaven?

Understand that before my conversion I was an Evangelical(S. Bapt) and I have(or had) rather clearly defined ideas about Hell. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but I don't understand how one can have eternal bliss in hell, invincible ignorance or not. Could you reference this for me in the CCC, or in the writings of the early Fathers?

Thanks and God Bless!

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