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 Post subject: Re: Judgment
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:31 am 
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FritzTribe wrote:
Now maybe I am wrong but I think these verses are telling us that those who have not heard, through no fault of their own, still have a shot at eternal salvation. They will be judge according to their hearts. Muslims, Jews, etc still can attain a heavenly seat.

Michelle


Again, the dogmatic defintion of Pope Eugenio IV must be realized.

The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

If you want to make the case that those who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the Gospel, but live their lives in cooperation with God's grace, and according to the natural law, are, in some mysterious way, fully joined to the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church, then you may be on to something.

It is also a revealed dogma of the Church that it is necessary for the salvation of every human creature that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Ergo, if you want to make the argument that those who, through no fault of their own, don't know who the Roman Pontiff is, yet by cooperating with God's grace, and being obedient to the natural law, act as if in subjection to him, then you once again may be on to something.

But if you just want to say that anybody can be saved merely by being "good," then you are not speaking on behalf of the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church, but are merely voicing your own opinion.

Now, the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are one and the same thing, and just as it is impossible to be saved apart from Christ, so it is impossible to be saved outside of His Mystical Body. We are joined to that Body through the Sacrament of Baptism, and we persevere in that Body through the divine life of grace obtained from the other Sacraments and sacramentals and prayer.

These are the things that Christ instituted for our salvation. These are the things He brought to life through His death on the Cross. These are the things we cannot ignore.

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 Post subject: Re: Judgment
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:33 am 
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pax wrote:
FritzTribe wrote:
Now maybe I am wrong but I think these verses are telling us that those who have not heard, through no fault of their own, still have a shot at eternal salvation. They will be judge according to their hearts. Muslims, Jews, etc still can attain a heavenly seat.

Michelle


Again, the dogmatic defintion of Pope Eugenio IV must be realized.

The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

If you want to make the case that those who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the Gospel, but live their lives in cooperation with God's grace, and according to the natural law, are, in some mysterious way, fully joined to the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church, then you may be on to something.

It is also a revealed dogma of the Church that it is necessary for the salvation of every human creature that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Ergo, if you want to make the argument that those who, through no fault of their own, don't know who the Roman Pontiff is, yet by cooperating with God's grace, and being obedient to the natural law, act as if in subjection to him, then you once again may be on to something.

But if you just want to say that anybody can be saved merely by being "good," then you are not speaking on behalf of the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church, but are merely voicing your own opinion.

Now, the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are one and the same thing, and just as it is impossible to be saved apart from Christ, so it is impossible to be saved outside of His Mystical Body. We are joined to that Body through the Sacrament of Baptism, and we persevere in that Body through the divine life of grace obtained from the other Sacraments and sacramentals and prayer.

These are the things that Christ instituted for our salvation. These are the things He brought to life through His death on the Cross. These are the things we cannot ignore.


This is exactly why I prefer to speak of the office of the papacy as the Lord's "prime minister"! The Catholic Church is a kingdom that has His promise, protection and seal (Daniel 2:44).

We are called to bring every nation to the Lord as this fulfills Gods promise to Abrahaem (Genesis 17:3-7).

The road to perdition is wide, think of each sunday and look around you. How many in society goes to Mass? Compared to what you see we are a small number. There is much work to do!

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:16 am 
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torn, If you will not listen to the wise people on this list, perhaps some of the Early Church fathers could convince you.

"If any one confesses Christ Jesus the Lord, but denies the God of the law and of the prophets, saying that the Father of Christ is not the Maker of heaven and earth, he has not continued in the truth any more than his father the devil, and is a disciple of Simon Magus, not of the Holy Spirit." Ignatius of Antioch, To the Philadelphians, 5 (A.D. 110

"[T]hese have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favour, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense." Tertullian, Apology, 18:3 (A.D. 197)

"Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged--the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility." Tertullian, Apology, 48:12 (A.D. 197)

"And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end." Augustine, City of God, 21:23 (A.D. 426).

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:48 pm 
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hsingmomof4 wrote:
As for whether or not demons exist, as the great-grandaughter of someone who died during an exorcism, I assure you that they are real.


I'm sorry about your great grandmother. I hope that they were able to accomplish the task and that she is in Paradice! You need to keep bathed in prayer! God bless you!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:20 am 
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It was my grandfather, and no, unfortunately he died still in the grips of it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:59 pm 
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hsingmomof4 wrote:
It was my grandfather, and no, unfortunately he died still in the grips of it.


They could take over his body, but they could not take over his soul! Continue to pray for him. If he is in purgatory, he would benifit from your prayer. If he is in heaven, the Lord would use your prayer for another in need. We don't need to think of the other place!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:39 pm 
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hsingmomof4 wrote:
It was my grandfather, and no, unfortunately he died still in the grips of it.


They could take over his body, but they could not take over his soul! Continue to pray for him. If he is in purgatory, he would benifit from your prayer. If he is in heaven, the Lord would use your prayer for another in need. We don't need to think of the other place!


CD's right. Keep praying for him. You never know what'll come of it. I'll remember your grandfather in my prayers. If we got all the folks on this board to lift him up in prayer, that'd be awesome!! As CD said, if he's in purgatory, he'll reap the benefits. If he's in heaven, another soul (or many souls) will.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:59 pm 
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Thank you. It is very kind of you. He appears to have been possessed at a young age (around 9) and was in and out of institutions all of his life, and committed many atrocities esp. on the young girls living nearby. It wasn't until late in his life, when his wife finally snuck a priest in to his presence, that the truth of what was wrong with him became obvious. He certainly suffered all of his life. I hope and pray that he has already gone home, and we pray daily for Eternal Rest for his soul.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:13 pm 
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With all due respect, faithfulservant, you didn't answer my question:
Quote:
Could someone tell me where in the entire Bible is the first mention of hell as a place of eternal torture?

And with all due respect, Fritz Tribe, although you seem to be the only person willing to even attempt to answer my straightforward question, if you think that Isaiah 33:14 is the first reference to hell as a place of eternal torture, then it's an incredible unclear reference, a very vague reference indeed.
Quote:
The sinners in Sion are afraid, trembling hath seized upon the hypocrites. Which of you can dwell with devouring fire? which of you shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

It's not as if it's not important that people should know about hell. Yet the Bible, the word of God, when telling people for the very first time that there's a real possibility they may suffer eternal torture, merely says:
Quote:
The sinners in Sion are afraid, trembling hath seized upon the hypocrites. Which of you can dwell with devouring fire? which of you shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

From that much of an explanation, are people from that point in time onwards supposed to understand that an infinitely merciful God of love will condemn them to eternal torture if they're not very careful - something which no-one ever explained to them before? How on earth could they be expected to understand that, with so little explanation?

And what about all the people who existed before the Book of Isaiah? Why weren't they told? There were more than 20 books of the Bible written before Isaiah.

Anyway, I don't think that Isaiah 33:14 is the first reference to hell as a place of eternal torture in the Bible.
Quote:
The sinners in Sion are afraid, trembling hath seized upon the hypocrites. Which of you can dwell with devouring fire? which of you shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

It's merely a question - to which the answer is none of us! And it's one measly verse. Surely God cannot be so negligent as to give so little warning to the people He created that they would end up being eternally tortured if they weren't very very careful?

Can anyone give me a better answer to my question? Perhaps I should add one word to it:
Quote:
Could someone tell me where in the entire Bible is the first clear mention of hell as a place of eternal torture?

It's not as if it's not important enough to be clearly mentioned - or clearly explained. So where in the Bible is it first clearly mentioned, or clearly explained?

It's a straightforward question. Can I have a straightforward answer please? Anyone?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:29 pm 
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It will happen when the general judgement takes place. God will judge the nations. If your a goat, that will be eternal. Try not to be on the Lord's left!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:41 pm 
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Look, I understand that there are more references and probably earlier ones at that and I by no means am a biblical scholar but I was giving examples that there are indeed references to it in both the old and new testaments.

I don't think you are going to be satisfied regardless of what anyone comes up with.

Is it really important the first time it is mentioned? No, the fact that we will be judged by God is the ONLY important aspect of judgment. How He decides to judge us is only known by Him. Some who believe they are getting to heaven will surely be left out and some who others believe have no chance will be sitting in heaven with all the angels and saints. We should be concerned with following God's rules, believing in Christ and spreading His gospel. Ultimately our fates, whether in heaven or hell (for eternity or not) rest solely in God's hands.

I am wondering though, can you cite evidence to the contrary... that those in hell will all be taken to heaven in the end? What should we do about 1000s of years of teaching?

Michelle

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:49 pm 
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Here are some definitions for you to consider (based on the scriptures I provided). I think the definition for eternal is clear (especially given that Jesus himself used this language).

Main Entry: 1ev·er·last·ing
Pronunciation: "e-v&r-'las-ti[ng]
Function: adjective
1 : lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL
2 a (1) : continuing long or indefinitely (2) : having or being flowers or foliage that retain form or color for a long time when dried b : tediously persistent <the everlasting sympathy-seeker who demands attention -- H. A. Overstreet>
3 : wearing indefinitely

Main Entry: 1eter·nal
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity -- more at AYE
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? -- Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)>
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless
3 archaic : INFERNAL <some eternal villain ... devised this slander -- Shakespeare>
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS <eternal verities

Main Entry: time·less
Pronunciation: 'tIm-l&s
Function: adjective
1 archaic : PREMATURE, UNTIMELY
2 a : having no beginning or end : ETERNAL b : not restricted to a particular time or date <the timeless themes of love, solitude, joy, and nature -- Writer>
3 : not affected by time : AGELESS

Main Entry: per·pet·u·al
Pronunciation: p&r-'pe-ch&-w&l, -ch&l; -'pech-w&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English perpetuel, from Middle French, from Latin perpetuus uninterrupted, from per- through + petere to go to -- more at FEATHER
1 a : continuing forever : EVERLASTING b (1) : valid for all time (2) : holding (as an office) for life or for an unlimited time
2 : occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued
3 : blooming continuously throughout the season
synonym see CONTINUAL

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:03 pm 
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FritzTribe wrote:
Look, I understand that there are more references and probably earlier ones at that and I by no means am a biblical scholar but I was giving examples that there are indeed references to it in both the old and new testaments.

I don't think you are going to be satisfied regardless of what anyone comes up with.

Is it really important the first time it is mentioned?
No, the fact that we will be judged by God is the ONLY important aspect of judgment. How He decides to judge us is only known by Him. Some who believe they are getting to heaven will surely be left out and some who others believe have no chance will be sitting in heaven with all the angels and saints. We should be concerned with following God's rules, believing in Christ and spreading His gospel. Ultimately our fates, whether in heaven or hell (for eternity or not) rest solely in God's hands.

I am wondering though, can you cite evidence to the contrary... that those in hell will all be taken to heaven in the end? What should we do about 1000s of years of teaching?

Michelle


michelle, you have reiterated what i have been trying to get across to our incredibly obstinate friend for a while (shaking dust from sandals...hmmmm :roll: ) he continues to repeat the same thing over and over and over...as if saying something enough times will finally make it so...in spite of what the Church has always taught ... his "evidence" is his peculiar notion that an infinitely loving and merciful God would never condemn anyone to hell...or worse, that being in hell is not eternal...plain and simple...unless he changes his tune, he will sadly find out the reality of the situation when it is time for his particular judgement

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:26 pm 
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let's see...won't believe the bible...won't believe the Church teaching...how about someone who has been there :shock:

Quote:
from St Faustina...of Divine Mercy chaplet fame

http://www.divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

Quote:
Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell

"I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence...the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell." (Diary 741)


No One Can Say There is No Hell
Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like...how terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God's mercy upon them. O My Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend you by the least sin." (Diary 741)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:45 pm 
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The first time hell is mentioned as eternal torture?

About 15 pages ago in this thread.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:56 pm 
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:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard

did you look...are you sure it wasn't before that... can't believe we went that many pages speaking of judgement w/o mentioning hell

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:39 pm 
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Quote:
Is it really important the first time it is mentioned?

It's important to me, and I'd like an answer from someone:

Where in the entire Bible is the first clear mention of hell as a place of eternal torture?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:14 pm 
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torn...can you tell us why you are so hung up on where it is in the bible? you heve been shown that before... and what the Fathers said...and what the Church teaches... you would think any one of the 3 would suffice, but you seem to discount any of the 3... why is that?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:37 pm 
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Rather than arguing with me about this, it would be simpler to simply answer my straightforward question.

Anyone?

There was one suggestion previously - just one - but it was in no way a clear reference to "hell as a place of eternal torture".

If hell really is a place of eternal torture - to which any of us could easily go, for eternity, if we are not careful - then surely God would want to warn us about this terrible possibility as clearly as possible, and warn all the people who lived thousands of years ago, as clearly as possible?

So where in the entire Bible is the first clear mention of hell as a place of eternal torture?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:39 pm 
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there is no argument torn... you have been given your answer... you have been shown from scripture, from the fathers and from Church teaching that hell indeed is a place of eternal torment...if you choose not to believe that, then you're on your own... it's definitely sandal dusting time

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