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 Post subject: Judgment
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:27 am 
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Last week our priest talked a lot about not judging and condemning your neighbour since only God knows what is truly on his heart.

Is it heretical to think that an Anglican or even a Buddhist might be saved? The Bible seems to say i) that we cannot know how God will judge us (or that we are not the judges) and ii) we are judged by what we do (I think this is in Revelation).

So if a non-Catholic leads a saintly life isn't it plausible that God would send them upstairs instead of downstairs?


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:29 am 
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The name of the heresy which teaches that only Catholics will enter heaven is McFeeneyism.

CCC 846: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation. . . .[Christ] affirmed at the same time the nescessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

But:

CCC 847: "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: 'Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve salvation."

Thus if you KNOW the Catholic Church to be the true Church and don't enter, you have forfeited salvation, but if you don't know this (and I think most Protestants don't), you have not.

Romans 1:20-21 teaches about this: "Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made." Thus one never having heard the name of God can determine he is there and seek him, but "as a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks." Thus some deliberately reject God.

Buddhists--I don't know, but it seems the principle of CCC 847 would apply just the same. Someone who knows more may say differently.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 9:08 am 
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persephone wrote:

Thus if you KNOW the Catholic Church to be the true Church and don't enter, you have forfeited salvation, but if you don't know this (and I think most Protestants don't), you have not.




In that case................looks like I'm converting!

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 9:53 am 
Alleluia Tom! I'll be praying for you! I am a convert. I can't express the beauty, the sublimity, the sheer awesomeness of (being one of the least brethren and) having the Roman Catholic Church as my Mother! :amen:

I think this paragraph from Dominus Iesus answers your question nicely.
Quote:
2. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”.93 One understands then that, following the Lord's command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church “proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life”.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 10:04 am 
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persephone wrote:
The name of the heresy which teaches that only Catholics will enter heaven is McFeeneyism.


For clarification, it's "Feeneyism".


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 Post subject: Re: Judgment
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 10:11 am 
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workinprogress wrote:
Last week our priest talked a lot about not judging and condemning your neighbour since only God knows what is truly on his heart.

Is it heretical to think that an Anglican or even a Buddhist might be saved? The Bible seems to say i) that we cannot know how God will judge us (or that we are not the judges) and ii) we are judged by what we do (I think this is in Revelation).

So if a non-Catholic leads a saintly life isn't it plausible that God would send them upstairs instead of downstairs?



..btw... thanks for spelling "judgment" correctly. ;) :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Protestant/secular confusion (and spelling)
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 10:45 am 
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I used the American spelling of Judgment. I wouldn't be upset with using Judgement though, being Canadian...

The CBC's national news show "the National" had a lot of coverage about Pope Benedict and seemed to suggest he was absolutist about the deficiency of other churches. My impression from the language used was that he believed protestants were going to hell. An Anglican co-worker was railing against the Catholic Church the other day saying "sure, they teach that unbaptized babies are in purgatory and all the Protestants are going to hell." I said that was just Protestant paranoia.

Your comments encourage me to hold to that view and to trust in God's grace and justice when it comes to the final judgment. Thanks.

With that I think I will go read Dominus Iesus.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 11:54 am 
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tAnGo wrote:
persephone wrote:
The name of the heresy which teaches that only Catholics will enter heaven is McFeeneyism.


For clarification, it's "Feeneyism".


Heh, unless I was making a joke about McReligion. ;) (I wasn't, I just didn't check it first.)

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 12:41 pm 
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persephone wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
persephone wrote:
The name of the heresy which teaches that only Catholics will enter heaven is McFeeneyism.


For clarification, it's "Feeneyism".


Heh, unless I was making a joke about McReligion. ;) (I wasn't, I just didn't check it first.)


hehe. cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Judgment
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 2:56 pm 
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workinprogress wrote:
Last week our priest talked a lot about not judging and condemning your neighbour since only God knows what is truly on his heart.

Is it heretical to think that an Anglican or even a Buddhist might be saved? The Bible seems to say i) that we cannot know how God will judge us (or that we are not the judges) and ii) we are judged by what we do (I think this is in Revelation).

So if a non-Catholic leads a saintly life isn't it plausible that God would send them upstairs instead of downstairs?
Hi Work, Every nonbeliever will come before the Lord for judgement. When one dies then comes judgement. All will be judged according to Gods Law. Every human has the Law written in their hearts. There is no excuse. If you kept them heaven is your reward,if not Hell is your sentence. God being a just God will impose the degree of punishment according to your sin. Praise God for sending His Son for the punishment of our sins as believers .Amen. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 3:47 pm 
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tom58 wrote:
persephone wrote:

Thus if you KNOW the Catholic Church to be the true Church and don't enter, you have forfeited salvation, but if you don't know this (and I think most Protestants don't), you have not.


In that case................looks like I'm converting!


Bravo, Tom. God bless you.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 7:44 am 
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wip, it might be good to point out to you (and your anglican friend) that if you are in purgatory, you are assured of heaven...at some point... depends on the purification needed according to the sins that must be atoned for

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 8:01 am 
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how anyone can even think a buddhist is "even considered" eligible for heaven is beyond me....

there is but one way---and that thru God'S SON--Jesus Christ our LORD.

John 14:6
I am the way and the truth and the life. NO one comes to the Father except through me.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:17 am 
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so the billions of people on this earth who never have the opportunity to hear the good news of the gospel are just passing time huh? God... (or you :shock: :roll:) condemns them to hell with no hope of salvation through no fault of their own ... maybe you better rethink your position mark and give God a chance to pass judgement on those who do not, or will never know the Name above all Names

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 Post subject: Re: Judgment
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:19 am 
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workinprogress wrote:
Last week our priest talked a lot about not judging and condemning your neighbour since only God knows what is truly on his heart.

Is it heretical to think that an Anglican or even a Buddhist might be saved? The Bible seems to say i) that we cannot know how God will judge us (or that we are not the judges) and ii) we are judged by what we do (I think this is in Revelation).

So if a non-Catholic leads a saintly life isn't it plausible that God would send them upstairs instead of downstairs?


A non-Catholic maybe saved through their not knowing the truth! If they never had the chance ("invincible ignorance") then they can be saved (Vatican II). We are called to go to them and witness to them!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:21 am 
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tom58 wrote:
persephone wrote:

Thus if you KNOW the Catholic Church to be the true Church and don't enter, you have forfeited salvation, but if you don't know this (and I think most Protestants don't), you have not.




In that case................looks like I'm converting!


Praise God! I encourage you to check with St. Josephs Communications and get the "Alex Jones Conversion Story- No Price is too High"! You will love it!

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:24 am 
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tAnGo wrote:
persephone wrote:
The name of the heresy which teaches that only Catholics will enter heaven is McFeeneyism.


For clarification, it's "Feeneyism".


The fact that the Catholics will be the only ones entering heaven is not a heresy! It's the truth! Do you think that a Protestant or any other will enter Heaven as such! Don't forget Purgatory!!! They will be transformed through the truth when it is opened to them at that time! They will enter as Catholics!

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:26 am 
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amen to that CD! :yes: :salut: :thumbsup: :cloud9:

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:37 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:
amen to that CD! :yes: :salut: :thumbsup: :cloud9:


Hey faithful, my long time Houston Texans fan!!! My brother of times past, and one time competitor for the most post race! I'm sorry I had to drop out of that race due to unforseen circumstances, but it looks as if Siggy has got it under control.

At the end of this age, Jesus will judge the living and the dead. There will be two kingdoms, heaven and hell! All those saved will enter into heaven and those who are not will go to hell. At that time, there will not be an issue of religion. That will already be settled!

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 12:15 pm 
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definitely looking to be on the sheep side at that time cd... and i have a much better chance now that i'm home than i ever did as a fallen away lukewarm baptist

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