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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:52 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Is it true that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, can an atheist know that it's true?

Even an athiest could personally verify each of the 21,969 steps in the proof.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:25 pm 
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Brendan wrote:
mark malone wrote:
Max Majestic wrote:
Mark, does God have to reveal to each individual that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, how does that occur?


it is REVEALED already-----just like JESUS dying on the cross AND resurrecting----



Revealed where?



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:23 am 
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john 14:6

then go back and read john 1

if you have a concordance----read as many things about truth as possible----you will see truth was before creation.....

and finally, read matthew 5:8

do you "see" truth?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:36 am 
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mark malone wrote:
john 14:6

then go back and read john 1

if you have a concordance----read as many things about truth as possible----you will see truth was before creation.....

and finally, read matthew 5:8

do you "see" truth?



Would you mind putting it in your own words?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:53 am 
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Max Majestic wrote:
mark malone wrote:
john 14:6

then go back and read john 1

if you have a concordance----read as many things about truth as possible----you will see truth was before creation.....

and finally, read matthew 5:8

do you "see" truth?



Would you mind putting it in your own words?



:bump

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:00 am 
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what do you have blind glasses on or what-----if I referred you to scripture---ARE THESE FOREIGN TO YOU---or do you always need a mans intrepetaion?

these verses clearly show GODS STATEMENT ITSELF that HE IS TRUTH---AND HE IS ETERNAL---AND ALL ANSWERS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN

ecclesiastes 1:9


NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN----its always been.....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:06 am 
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do you think Einstein "INVENTED" relativity----or just "discovered it"


do you think newton "invented" gravity?

do you think the wright brothers "invented" flight or airplanes from new things?

do you think al gore "invented" the internet from "new things"?


the answer to all these is NO.


everything needed to have truth revealed, whether by creation or evidence---is NOT NEW.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:18 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:18 am 
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mark malone wrote:
what do you have blind glasses on or what-----if I referred you to scripture---ARE THESE FOREIGN TO YOU---or do you always need a mans intrepetaion?

these verses clearly show GODS STATEMENT ITSELF that HE IS TRUTH---AND HE IS ETERNAL---AND ALL ANSWERS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN

ecclesiastes 1:9


NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN----its always been.....


Condescension is never productive. I'm well read in Scripture. Scripture cannot, however, tell me what YOU believe. There is only a Book of Mark in the Bible.......there is no Book of Mark Malone.

Mark, the question was this:
Quote:
Mark, does God have to reveal to each individual that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, how does that occur?



You claimed it was revealed. Brendan asked where it was revealed that 2 + 2 = 4. So far, you've failed to answer that question. If you want to avoid that question and respond to a deeper, more fundamental question, then respond to these:

1) What is truth?
2) What is knowledge?
3) How does a person attain knowledge?
4) How does a person prove to other people that proposition 'x' is true?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:13 am 
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Max Majestic wrote:


You claimed it was revealed. Brendan asked where it was revealed that 2 + 2 = 4. So far, you've failed to answer that question. If you want to avoid that question and respond to a deeper, more fundamental question, then respond to these:

1) What is truth?
2) What is knowledge?
3) How does a person attain knowledge?
4) How does a person prove to other people that proposition 'x' is true?



Mark,

There is Truth and there is knowledge. They are different things.

Do we have knowledge of Truth? How do we know Truth?

That was the heart of my question. Your proposition was the Truth is Revealed. How was "2+2=4" revealed?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:16 am 
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through the holy spirit...

there is truth, there is knowledge, there is faith.

the heart of your question is found in the incarnation, not the mind.

you are looking for a human revelation---when the human mind by its nature neglects truth----carnal.

how many pre-schoolers will get 2 + 2 wrong?

the human mind isnt programmed to have truth---it is carnal because of adamic sin.

knowledge DOES not bring truth----

but TRUTH does bring knowledge----

and there is only one truth that is author of all truth-----before creation.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:29 am 
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[quote="mark malone"]through the holy spirit...

the question----does God have to reveal truth to everybody, and how does it occur---answer again---holy spirit---
and the truth is offered to EVERYONE...but not all accept it.

there is truth, there is knowledge, there is faith.

the heart of your question is found in the incarnation, not the mind.

you are looking for a human revelation---when the human mind by its nature neglects truth----carnal.

how many pre-schoolers will get 2 + 2 wrong?

the human mind isnt programmed to have truth---it is carnal because of adamic sin.

knowledge DOES not bring truth----many people thought the world was flat because of "knowledge", but didnt read the scriptures or know them.

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a "canopy", and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

but TRUTH does bring knowledge----

john 14:26
But the Counselor, the HOLY SPIRIT, whom the FATHER will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I said to you.

and there is only one truth that is author of all truth-----before creation.

and then---GOD calls whom he calls----and gives truth to those he foreknew...
and yet it is offered to everyone----who accepts and sees?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:09 am 
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mark malone wrote:
through the holy spirit...

the question----does God have to reveal truth to everybody, and how does it occur---answer again---holy spirit---
and the truth is offered to EVERYONE...but not all accept it.


So, it's not just religious truth that is revealed by the Holy Spirit, but also intellectual truth (such as the proposition that 2 +2 = 4) as well?

Tell me, how does the Holy Spirit reveal intellectual truth to people? Did God reveal E= MC^2 to Einstein??


mark malone wrote:
there is truth, there is knowledge, there is faith.


Very true.


mark malone wrote:
the heart of your question is found in the incarnation, not the mind.

you are looking for a human revelation---when the human mind by its nature neglects truth----carnal.

how many pre-schoolers will get 2 + 2 wrong?

the human mind isnt programmed to have truth---it is carnal because of adamic sin.


So, how does the Holy Spirit overcome the mind's corruption by adamic sin to give truth? Are you saying that only Christians are capable of intellectual truth?


mark malone wrote:
knowledge DOES not bring truth----many people thought the world was flat because of "knowledge", but didnt read the scriptures or know them.


Truth is a requisite part of knowledge. If you have knowledge, then it's assumed that you already have truth.....unless you want to say that people can have "knowledge" of something that's untrue. I, however, wouldn't call that knowledge, I'd call it deception.


mark malone wrote:
Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a "canopy", and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

but TRUTH does bring knowledge----


1) The verse you quoted deals with the Glory and Power of God....not with knowledge.
2) Truth does not automatically necessitate knowledge. Maybe it would be helpful here if you defined what knowledge was and under what circumstances knowledge it attainable.


mark malone wrote:
john 14:26
But the Counselor, the HOLY SPIRIT, whom the FATHER will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I said to you.

and there is only one truth that is author of all truth-----before creation.

and then---GOD calls whom he calls----and gives truth to those he foreknew...
and yet it is offered to everyone----who accepts and sees?


Human beings attained knowledge before God sent the Holy Spirit. Geometry, for example, was alive and well before the time of Christ. I don't think God busies Himself with trivial matters like revealing to us which brand of dish detergent is most efficient. Christ sent the Holy Spirit to teach us everything we need to know about our relationship with God. Funny thing is, given the widely ranging diversity of belief in Protestantism, it appears that many Protestants aren't "accepting and seeing". Unless you want to argue that the Holy Spirit sews discord and disinformation....how do you know that what you "accept and see" is actually the work of the Holy Spirit and not some devil sent to lead you astray?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:20 am 
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knowledge is ONLY revealed thru the HOLY SPIRIT, along with truth...

its there for everybody

knowledge is availabe just as salvation---

one doesnt get saved just because they have knowledge---even you know that.

ALL THINGS ARE available because God loves the WHOLE WORLD..not just some...

just because they reject his salvation---doesnt mean they reject knowledge---however that knowledge will most definitely prove futile without CHRIST in anything they do....they may be successful----but only in the world---and then, where does that get them?

TRUTH and knowledge are from GOD---he is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient....

and truth has been revealed in whole already-----and its always been attainable---but something gets in ourway----ourselves(sin)....

and yes---GOD is the one who already made E=mc2----way before einstien "discovered" it and revealed it.....

God'S plan is perfect---he doesnt change---only we do.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:25 am 
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1) We're not talking about salvation. We're talking about knowledge.

2) You answered none of my questions. Use the quote feature at the top of my post to delineate my questions and answer in the space below.

3) Paragraphs really help to organize ideas and present them more clearly.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:12 am 
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Mark it seems like you are identifying natural truths with the very essence of God.

Do you understand that there are two orders of knowledge?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:54 am 
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Interestingly, the three most important and influential cultures of the ancient world have different words for truth, and a different take on what exactly truth is. The charge against Our Lord written above his cross was written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin.

The Greek word for truth is alethia wich literally means "not-forgetfulfulness." The connotation is that the truth is a knowledge that is inate to us and that our natural inclination is to 'forget' the truth. This, in certain respects, is the point of the Socratic method. The search for truth is in intellectual discovery to "shake off" our forgetfullness in order to find truth which for them is knowledge (correct me here Max or anyone else if I am wrong).

The Latin word for truth is more moral and practical - veritas. It connotates rightness, lawfulness, etc. in thought. The intellect is seen as under the categories of the will and morality. Truth is rightness in thought, and justice is rightness in deed.

The Hebrew word for truth is emeth, which means fidelity or faithfulness. It is more personal and primordial than the other two since it describes an aspect of character. It points to the virtue of a person manifested by their actions.

The Greeks ascribed truth to thoughts, the Romans to deeds and the Hebrews to persons (first to God). I think this where Mark Malone is coming from here. According to the Hebrews, truth is what holds a person together, and specifically the eternal Truth, which is God's love - ultimately manifested at Calvary.


Last edited by David Hopkins on Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:25 pm 
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David Hopkins wrote:
The Greek word for truth is alethia wich literally means "not-forgetfulfulness." The connotation is that the truth is a knowledge that is inate to us and that our natural inclination is to 'forget' the truth. This, in certain respects, is the point of the Socratic method. The search for truth is in intellectual discovery to "shake off" our forgetfullness in order to find truth which for them is knowledge (correct me here Max or anyone else if I am wrong).


No, you're right. Plato's Meno is where that comes from.

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