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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:01 am 
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David Hopkins IV wrote:
This seems very approrpriate. Has anyone read this book? Look at the product description.
I picked it up (along with a couple of other books by heretofore Card. Ratzinger) yesterday after hearing about HH's election. I've only read a few pages though. My concentration isn't very good right now.

Justin


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:51 am 
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Max Majestic wrote:
But Mark, how do YOU determine something to be true?


first of all, the ONLY truth is found in JESUS CHRIST our LORD....and if HE and HIS ways are not included---than truth is nothing but "chasing the wind"....that means having a righteous relationship with HIM, having a prayer life with him, seeking HIS WORD and the TRUTH in it, and seeing how he works through his BRIDE/CHURCH BODY.

and the HOLY SPIRIT is what guides me into truth----

if my relationship with HIM is right---I have no doubt his guidance is "clear"...and because I know he loves me----he will lead me where he wants me to go----doesnt matter what I think or feel.....

if my relationship with him is wrong, than it all falls on me, and thats scary.

concerning philosophical bunk, if something doesnt match scripturally----IT AINT TRUTH....worth living or dying for---it will be burnt as chaff.

concerning everyday things----lots of times I take peoples words---giving one the benefit of the doubt whether it be true or not---I DONT ALWAYS seek out whether it is or not....

when I need to find truth---prayer comes first---

say for instance one of my children get in a fight in school----I dont go in thinking my child is right---NO WAY.

I do ask my child first what happened----I wont even let the principal or teacher give "what they know".....

I task my children, and know them well enough, and they know me well enough to know I like justice---and that means TOTAL truth---EVEN if they are in the wrong. After listening to my child---then I'll get the scoop from the "authority"....and work things out from there.....
and even then----I dont force truth on anyone....if they want to believe "falsely" or prejudicially, thats something God will have to handle HIS way---not mine....

we are SLAVES to information---when seeking truth---UNTIL it comes to THE WORD....

if relationship, prayer and submission to HIM is not in accord with HIS will---then HE will let you know it----my conscience/spirit WILL be pricked by the HOLY SPIRIT....

I've had a good enough relationship with HIM for a time to know WHEN I am in need for repentence/obedience----whatever the case may be.

when men determine truth----its nothing but chasing the wind

when God determines truth through HIS WORD, through prayer, through HIS church and through my everyday experiences, than HIS WILL can be clearly seen.

If the LORD isnt a part of determining truth----than truth is folly.

and that means having prayer, AND a right relationship with HIM.


I DONT SEEK TRUTH ON MY OWN----that is how I determine truth===THROUGH HIM.

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Last edited by mark malone on Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:53 am 
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1962Missal wrote:
David Hopkins IV wrote:
This seems very approrpriate. Has anyone read this book? Look at the product description.
I picked it up (along with a couple of other books by heretofore Card. Ratzinger) yesterday after hearing about HH's election. I've only read a few pages though. My concentration isn't very good right now.

Justin


Evidently, his books are selling incredibly. Many stores have run out of stock. :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:01 am 
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Brendan wrote:
mark malone wrote:
2 truths

Is Pope Benedict XVI the new pope---YES-- we know cause it was announced as though.

we are not a "slave" to this kind of truth---we know for sure that he is.




Well, that "Truth by announcement" must come from trusted source, correct?

I presume you did not actually witness the event yourself.

You know it to be true because you trust CNN or your local newspaper..etc, correct?

You gain this knowledge from a trusted source, an source with Authority, and therefore accept it's Truth.

Is that your premise?


is Ratsinger the new pope or not? and it was FOX---not the anti-semitic CNN, in which I got the info....and I am still a slave to that....no manly source, what OR whoever it may be, is "trusted" as you say....EVERY man is a "qualified" liar.

it could be another man dressed as Ratsinger for all we know...right?

truth is not determined by US----the only real truth is revealed by the HOLY SPIRIT....

and its practical....not some "hidden" message that needs to be "deciphered".....

and its HIS truth that really is the ONLY thing that counts....

this WORLD is deceived.....but the "deciever" has no power over me....he can influence and attack me----but he has no everlasting power over me...so he can decieve me ALL he wants---with what I see, read, hear or gather-----but I know for sure that the only real truth is JESUS CHRIST our LORD.

AMEN.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Mark:

Is it true that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, can an atheist know that it's true?

(Others are welcome to play, but please, let's give him a bit to take first shot at this question. BTW, I'm not aiming at talking you all into agreeing with The Grand Answer To The Question(s)) because there isn't one.)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:20 pm 
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I'm sorry if this isn't relevant but my friend pointed out to me the other day (she's a Biology major) that FACTS and TRUTHS are two different things.

I was thrown off kilter with that... still trying to understand.

Okay, back to the discussion...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:40 pm 
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me3rd wrote:
I'm sorry if this isn't relevant but my friend pointed out to me the other day (she's a Biology major) that FACTS and TRUTHS are two different things.


Are they? What do you think she meant by that? Do you think she's right?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:32 pm 
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She was discussing the apparent conflicts between creationism and evolution theories. To say that the earth is how ever many million years old is a "fact" but not necessarily a "truth."

I still don't quite grasp it. Science can "prove" some things, but the standards it uses are just as finite as our knowledge.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:08 pm 
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me3rd wrote:
She was discussing the apparent conflicts between creationism and evolution theories. To say that the earth is how ever many million years old is a "fact" but not necessarily a "truth."

I still don't quite grasp it. Science can "prove" some things, but the standards it uses are just as finite as our knowledge.


Hmmm... I have heard the opposite said... Where a fact is a truth that has been evidenced to the intellect. For instance, limbo existing may be true, but it is currently not a fact. Or, it may be true that we evolved, but it is not yet a fact. When truth is proven, it becomes a fact of the intellect.

I have mixed feelings about this deliniation, but I have heard it used.

FJ

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:19 am 
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me3rd wrote:
She was discussing the apparent conflicts between creationism and evolution theories. To say that the earth is how ever many million years old is a "fact" but not necessarily a "truth."

I still don't quite grasp it. Science can "prove" some things, but the standards it uses are just as finite as our knowledge.



Oh, boy. Lemme at her :box


me3rd, you can't grasp it because there's nothing to grasp. A fact is something that has actual existence or objective reality. Truth and falsity are both ways to assess statements. Let's use her example:

Here's her statement:

The earth is many millions of years old.

Now, if that statement is a true statement, then the statement is a fact.
If that statement is false, then the statement is not a fact.
It cannot both be a fact and be false.
It cannot both not be a fact and be true.

Now, they're not exactly synonymous, but pretty darned interrelated. FWIW, I smell relativism.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:20 am 
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Max Majestic wrote:
me3rd wrote:
She was discussing the apparent conflicts between creationism and evolution theories. To say that the earth is how ever many million years old is a "fact" but not necessarily a "truth."

I still don't quite grasp it. Science can "prove" some things, but the standards it uses are just as finite as our knowledge.



Oh, boy. Lemme at her :box


me3rd, you can't grasp it because there's nothing to grasp. A fact is something that has actual existence or objective reality. Truth and falsity are both ways to assess statements. Let's use her example:

Here's her statement:

The earth is many millions of years old.

Now, if that statement is a true statement, then the statement is a fact.
If that statement is false, then the statement is not a fact.
It cannot both be a fact and be false.
It cannot both not be a fact and be true.

Now, they're not exactly synonymous, but pretty darned interrelated. FWIW, I smell relativism.


Hey Max... Have you heard the usage that I described? Where a fact is something that has been proven to be true?

FJ

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:00 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Mark:

Is it true that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, can an atheist know that it's true?

(Others are welcome to play, but please, let's give him a bit to take first shot at this question. BTW, I'm not aiming at talking you all into agreeing with The Grand Answer To The Question(s)) because there isn't one.)


how old is your athiest?

does he have a God given brain?

has God revealed that 2 + 2 = 4-----whether a person believes in God or not?---

God is still the revealer and source, and if somone doesnt know 2+2=4, THAN God HAS ORDAINED THAT ALSO......and it will be in HIS TIME and WILL that it be revealed to the atheist OR BELIEVER....

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:17 am 
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Mark, does God have to reveal to each individual that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, how does that occur?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:53 pm 
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I see the grave disadvantage playing out here in vivid relief. When one does not have St. Thomas and the Magisterium to guide the intellect its like a bird trying to fly without feathers or wings.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:05 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
When one does not have St. Thomas ....


No kidding. Every time I read the Angelic Doctor, I honestly wonder if God created a finer mind than the one He gave to His servant Thomas.

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Last edited by Brendan on Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:06 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
I see the grave disadvantage playing out here in vivid relief. When one does not have St. Thomas and the Magisterium to guide the intellect its like a bird trying to fly without feathers or wings.


Another reason we should all watch Obi's teacher from the Mount discuss St. Thomas on EWTN Live in a few weeks (see sticky for this forum).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
I see the grave disadvantage playing out here in vivid relief. When one does not have St. Thomas and the Magisterium to guide the intellect its like a bird trying to fly without feathers or wings.



:roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:53 pm 
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You disagree, Max?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:25 am 
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Max Majestic wrote:
Mark, does God have to reveal to each individual that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, how does that occur?


it is REVEALED already-----just like JESUS dying on the cross AND resurrecting----

either one accepts it or they dont-----

but he died for the sins of the whole world-----some believe---some dont.

2 + 2 = 4 before the creation of the world was TRUTH already.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:18 am 
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mark malone wrote:
Max Majestic wrote:
Mark, does God have to reveal to each individual that 2 + 2 = 4? If so, how does that occur?


it is REVEALED already-----just like JESUS dying on the cross AND resurrecting----



Revealed where?

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