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 Post subject: Is God in Hell?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:30 pm 
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Since God is omnipresent and infinite, would He be in Hell, in the same sense that He is everywhere in the Universe (existing and effecting)?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:20 am 
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Beings in Hell continue to exist because He holds them in existence. I would be most cautious about using the idea of presence, though.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:26 am 
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Why though? He is omnipresent after all. Couldn't one of the chief pains of Hell be His presence, as he is an all consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29)?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:01 pm 
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I don't see how to square that claim with CCC 1035.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God in Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:05 pm 
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Catholic Cadet wrote:
Since God is omnipresent and infinite, would He be in Hell, in the same sense that He is everywhere in the Universe (existing and effecting)?


Fascinating thing to ponder... It requires someone who can speak somewhat intelligently about the metaphysical reality of "presence" without physicality, and what that entails... Which I am not prepared to do...

I would tend to answer like Obi has... God upholds their existence, but really takes away from them the one thing that we all need to at least pursue God... And that is hope... Thus, though God upholds their existence, he removes himself completely from their experience... Thus, all hope is also removed... as is the possibility of their salvation...

FJ

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:00 am 
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I'm surprised that none of you who are smarter than I am mentioned this, because it was the first thing I thought of. (That should clue me in that I'm probably about to make a misstatement, though.) To ask if God is in hell is to put hell in time and space. He can't be "in" hell the way he can be "in" Toledo.

Or maybe Toledo IS hell, I don't know.

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 Post subject: God's existence in hell
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:45 pm 
I'm approaching this from the following perspective that if hell is viewed as a "state of existence" and the finality of that existence being everything counter to all that is good...it being an existence which is the absence of "right" or everything that goes counter to who and what God is (loving, merciful etc) then perhaps God's presence would not hold there. Not because he can't be there by his omnipresence or a lack of power..but it would be purposeless.
On the other hand scripture tells us that it is a real place but how it exists or where it is at, we dont' know.
Can God see what goes on in hell without necessarily being there or existing there? sure he can and does. I hope my personal thoughts were clear. Again these are just thoughts


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:12 pm 
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Catholic Cadet wrote:
Why though? He is omnipresent after all. Couldn't one of the chief pains of Hell be His presence, as he is an all consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29)?


I think one can accept God's "presence" in hell if one understands the different categories of presence. For example the Real Presence of the Eucharist is not the same as God's presence elsewhere.

Z


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:37 am 
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I always considered hell as the agony of being away from God, so I would say that no, he isn't present in hell.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:25 am 
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This is just my thought, so don't blast me if it's faulty. It's similar to what FJ said, but with a different twist.

My thought is that people in hell chose to cut themselves off from God, so although He is omnipresent, He is not present to them through their own fault. They cannot see Him although He is there. They are blind to Him, not He to them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:28 am 
If I may paraphrase CS Lewis...

The people in Heaven are those who say to God "Thy will be done."
The people in Hell are those to whom God ultimately says, "Thy will be done."


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:23 am 
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I'm obviously no C.S. Lewis. Good post.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:41 am 
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Booyah, InVino... I try my darndest to say "Thy will be done" every day. Man, it's sometimes only when I am beaten down by the things of this world do I realize God controls it all and I am merely his servant.

Also, welcome dd1068.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:47 pm 
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I think the Scholastics thought that God is "in" hell because His Justice is there; but God is "not" in hell in the way hope (as an attribute of God) is not there ("Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here," Inferno, Canto 5, Dante, soon to be Doctor of the Church????)
As our member bonaventure said, the world is contingent on God; hell is eternal because God the Creator is eternal and could not have its existence without His Justice.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:32 am 
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This argument brings my mind to a line in one of the psalms "though I make my bed in hell, you are there." not sure whitch psalm it is, but its in there somewhere

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 Post subject: Re: Is God in Hell?
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:28 pm 
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Catholic Cadet wrote:
Since God is omnipresent and infinite, would He be in Hell, in the same sense that He is everywhere in the Universe (existing and effecting)?


I was wondering this too, and I think it means that Hell itself, the Realm of Eternal Punishment is in God's Omnipresence, but inside Hell God does not leave His presence. For instance, we know that we as humans are in God's Omnipresence, but we also know that God the Holy Spirit is not in our soul unless in the state of grace. So technically we are in the Omnipresence of God, but that doesn't mean He is in us. God can do anything He wants. Another example is, the Holy Spirit is God and infinite yet He is truly in our souls which is only finite, this doesn't seem possible yet it is. He also is truly completely in our souls yet completely in other souls and everywhere as well. Jesus is God the Son Incarnate, so He is 100% completely within the humanity of Christ while also being 100% completely Omnipresent everywhere else. This just shows God's amazing power.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 8:21 pm 
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Are you so sure that the soul is finite. Could not the soul be infinite, yet bound to a finite body so that is appears to have limitations. I mean, according to the creation story of adam, our soul is the breath of God, part of God's own life. Infinity diveded by anything finite, is still adn infinite amount.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 8:28 pm 
[CCC]CCC #366[/CCC]
Quote:
The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.


emphasis mine.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:56 am 
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WorBlux wrote:
Are you so sure that the soul is finite. Could not the soul be infinite, yet bound to a finite body so that is appears to have limitations. I mean, according to the creation story of adam, our soul is the Breath of God, part of God's own life. Infinity divided by anything finite, is still an infinite amount.

I don't think our soul is infinite because if it was that means the soul has the power to do anything. Infinite would be a never ending source of power, thats basically saying when we die, we could fight God face-to-face because we have an infinite spirit like God who is an Infinite Spirit. So if our soul is infinite then we all are Eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Almighty since we are infinite and our source comes from infinite. I know in Heaven we share in God's Divinity and maybe our souls have the chance to become infinite with and in God when we go to Heaven, but the soul itself rightnow I would say is still finite. The souls in Hell if infinite could break out and would technically not be just in Hell, but on earth and in Heaven as well if their soul is infinite. Angels are pure spirits who contain the Breath of God, are made in His image and likeness, and are part of God's own life. That means that technically Angels should be infinite as well, but if they were then why couldn't Satan beat St. Michael the Archangel. Satan would technically be infinite and have self-sustained infinite power which he could then stand up to God. Also if they were infinite then their knowledge would be infinite and could not be tempted by pride to rebel against God. If our souls are infinite then we become self-sustained, meaning we have no need for God. If we are finite then we need God since He is infinite, and we need to be part of His life just to live. Infinite would give us our own life and we could live without Him, plus we could bring about our own redemption rather than having God in the flesh as Christ redeem us. Christ's sacrifice was infinite to make an infinite reparation through His Divinity on behalf of humanity, if our souls were infinite then we could had anyone sacrifice themselves to God to make an infinite reparation since we are offering an infinite soul to God.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 9:35 am 
:oops: I am sorry. I mis-read you post St. Rob. I read eternal rather than infinite. You are right, of course. There is only one infinite and that is God. Our souls are eternal but certainly not infinite. God, alone, has no beginning or end.

sorry for my misunderstanding.


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