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Understanding the Covenants
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Author:  Polycarp [ Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
as far as using jewish traditional midrash/talmud----those are oral traditions written down and are still only mans opinion---they are NOT inspired.


Very true -- the Jewish extrabiblical traditions are not, as a rule, inspired. However, those traditions often conveyed many true doctrines from generation to generation in Israel, and they also help us to understand what the early Christians believed and how they lived, because the early Christian religion derived many of its beliefs and practices from Judaism. It is therefore reasonable to compare what Jubilees says about "1,000 years" during the Messianic Kingdom with what Revelation says about "1,000 years" during the Messianic Kingdom. Jubilees was written about 100 B.C., so we can conclude that the belief that men in the Messianic Kingdom would have lifespans of 1,000 years was known among the Jews in St. John's lifetime. Just as God used other familiar elements of Jewish belief and practice as symbols in St. John's vision, so God could have used a form of that tradition found in Jubilees as a symbol in Rev. 20.

Author:  seanie [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:45 am ]
Post subject: 

mark malone wrote:
seanie wrote:
Mark,

firstly, welcome to the board.

I find it odd you refer to Jeremiah 31:31-33, Mark 14:24, Matthew 26:28 in support of a 1,000 year millennial reign when none of these passages says any such thing.

If you get a chance, be sure to have a look at my articles at

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/disp/dispindex.html

cheers,
Sean.


thanx for the welcome sean---

I used the jeremiah, mark and matthew verses to support "when all israel will be saved" in romans, when Israel will accept the new covenant.
today ---believers should be living the life of the kingdom---but other passages support we are not living "kingdom of heaven" now.
there is still death, the lamb does not lay next to the lion, etc....

the fact the new covenant Israel will accept lasts a thousand years is only based on revelation 20:3
He threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it over him,to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years(millenial-greek for 1000) were ended.

if this was meant to be spiritaul--as the following post to yours claims---than the life adam, enoch and methusaleh were "spiritaul" also---I do not hold that view.

God talks to us personally in our everyday walk---there is no reason for him to talk to us only spiritually or symblically in the word the apostles"died" for to keep for our sake.

concerning the olivet discourse---we should be living today the "kingdom of heaven", but for israel future---all israel is not saved yet---but they will be at the 2nd coming when JESUS sets up the "kingom of heaven" on earth where HE will reign and sit upon the throne of david.

right now OUR LORD sits at the right hand---but when he comes again---to keep the promise to david---the davidic covenant---he will reign 1000 years where there will be ---no more tears- all nature will be in harmony with man as it was in the garden.

at the end of the millenial kingdom---NEW JERUSALEM(rev 21 and 22) will come down and God will create new heavens and a new earth....

there will be no sun---because the FATHER IS THE LIGHT and the LAMB ITS CANDLEHOLDER.

these things are just as literal as lazarus rising from the dead, blind bartimeus being given sight, or God making something form nothing.

God can do it and will---cause he promised he would in his word.
:wave


Hi Mark,

I'd just like to make a few points on your comments.

First, you acknowledge that the idea of the the 1,000 year Jewish kingdom is based solely on Revelation 20:3. The thing is, this verse is used as a means to force every other Scripture into an interpretation that mathces it. To explain what I mean, when the 1,000 years of Rev. 20:3 are taken literally, then all the verses in Ezekiel and the other prophets which refer to a future state must therefore refer to this supposed Jewuish millennium.

But they don't. They refer to the eternal state, not to a new Israeli theocracy. Even Revelation 20 notably doesn't mention Jews, David, Jerusalem, Israel, or thoecracy.

What Rev 20 does mention is dragon (symbolic), chain (symbolic), abyss (symbolic). Are we to suppose the 1,000 years are thereby literal?

You see what is happening? One verse is misinterpreted to be literal, not symbolic (even though the context is clearly symbolic) and the whole Bible has to be force-fitted into it.

You are also confusing two different terms. "Spiritual" and "symbolic" do not mean the same thing. I believe the ages of Methuselah and co. were certainly literally (not spiritually) true , and maybe they were symbolic too, maybe not. The 1,000 years are symbolic and real (not spiritual) too, but the context of Rev. 20 is clearly not to be taken literally.

btw Augustine was one Father who identified the "binding of the strong man" in Mark's Gospel with Revelation 20, in other words, the inauguration of the Christian era.

How do you reconcile the prophecy of the Temple and the restored animal sacrifices in Ezekiel 40-48, when Jesus' Sacrifice was accomplished for the salvation of mankind? The very idea of such sacrifices is an abomination.

Just read what dispensational authors say about this question. They haven't a clue how to answer, because they are confusing prophecies of the eternal state with prophecies of a so-called future Jewish theocracy. I've got some info on this on my site, linked above.

cheers,
Sean

Author:  mark malone [ Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

the sacrices that will be made in ezekiels temple are a memorial and will show clearly- with CHRIST HIMSELF there , what the 'SHADOW' of their meaning is---JESUS the MESSIAH----

the LAW shows JESUS thru and thru---

and with the surviving jews of the tribulation living in the MESSIANIC kingdom---their MESSIAH---they will see JESUS for who HE is and was....

everything in the bible does fit----and when taken in context---makes all scripture reality---not imaginatory...

Author:  seanie [ Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

mark malone wrote:
the sacrices that will be made in ezekiels temple are a memorial and will show clearly- with CHRIST HIMSELF there , what the 'SHADOW' of their meaning is---JESUS the MESSIAH----

the LAW shows JESUS thru and thru---

and with the surviving jews of the tribulation living in the MESSIANIC kingdom---their MESSIAH---they will see JESUS for who HE is and was....

everything in the bible does fit----and when taken in context---makes all scripture reality---not imaginatory...


Wrong Mark. The sacrifices in Ezekiel are not a memorial. And this highlights the fatal flaw in dispensational theology.

This is from my website:

Question 1: How does dispensationalism deal with the references to future "sacrifices" in Ezekiel 40-48 and Daniel 9?

The problem for dispensationalism here is the mention of sacrifices in the prophetic books. In this answer I deal with verses from Ezekiel and Daniel. The reference to sacrifices in these books is tricky because, according to the dispensational hermeneutic of a literal 1,000-year Jewish theocracy with restored sacrifices in a restored Temple, then the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is demeaned and, worse, that two ways of salvation are implied (one through the atonement of Christ, one though the OT sacrifices). Dispensational authors have tries to get around this problem in dispensationalism by saying these sacrifces mentioned are not expiatory (sin-offering) sacrifice, but merely "praise" or "worship" sacricies. As we shall see, this is a distinction that not only exists in the texts, but flatly contradicts the passages which speak of expiation. (Note: the term "Old Testament" is abbreviated to "OT" hereafter.)

If it's a worship sacrifice instead of a sin offering sacrifice that is referred to in Daniel 9 and Ezekiel 40-48, where does that leave dispensationalism's supposed literalism? After all, the dispensational hermeneutic claims to be literal, yet in this instance it must invent a sin-offering/worship offering distinction where none exists in the texts.

Example: Ezekiel 45: 15, 17, 20: the purpose of the sacrifices described here (which dispensationalism ascribes to the Millennium) is the piel form of kaphar which in the RSV means "to make atonement". This is of course the exact same word used in Leviticus and Numbers to describe propitiatory sacrifices. So either these sacrifices are propitiatory, in other words additional to, and thus an insult to, Christ's sacrifice, or else this mention of sacrifices is symbolic, which throws the dispensational hermeneutic out the window. After all, if the sacrifices mentioned are symbolic, why should the Temple be viewed as literal?

Dispensationalism also tries to force this "sin-offering sacrifice / worship sacrifice" distinction onto Daniel 9:27 but this will not work.

It is in fact remarkable that the only Bible version that use the translation "grain offerings" for Daniel 9:24 which dispensationalism points to as evidence the Temple must be restored, is the NASB and the New Life Verisons. Strong's concordance does not list "grain" in this verse.

Strong's Concordance for Daniel 9:24:

sacrifice 2077 zebach a slaughter, i.e. the flesh of an animal; by implication a sacrifice

oblation 4503 minchah a sacrificial offering gift, oblation, (meat) offering, present, sacrifice. (emphases in original)

There is no mention of grain offerings here. The attempt by dispensationalism to suggest this passage in Daniel refers to mere "memorial sacrifices" or "worship sacrifices" in a restored temple in the future falls flat on its face when we see that the sacrifices referred to in Daniel and Ezekiel refer to expiatory sacrifices, which have no place after the death of Christ on the Cross.

Dispensationalism simply fails to understand that the purpose of the OT sacrifices was to point to the sacrifice of Christ. When that has been accomplished, there is no more place for the old sacrifices. Why does dispenssationalism suppose the Temple ws destroyed in 70 AD?

Dispensationalism says the sacrifices are to be restored. But if they do not point towards the ultimate sacrifice of Christ, they are an abomination to God. The OT sacrifices did point towards Christ, and were only removed after His Coming.

Not only are the OT sacrifices no longer of use, but they now are an affront to God, Who sacrificed His only Son to accomplish what these sacrifices could never do.

Charles Ryrie tries to get out of the sacrificial-system problem of Dispensationalism vis a vis Hebrews 10:4, which reads

"it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins"

by maintaining that in the Millennium there will be a theocratic system and then sacrifices will be acceptable because Jews will be under "theocracy" (Ryrie "Dispensationalism" page 118-9). This is a meaningless answer to an insuperable problem for dispensationalism and an outright denial of Hebrews 10:4. It does not even address the issue of expiatiory sacrifices in Ezekiel 40-48.

Dispensational scholar John F. Walvoord, on page 150 of his book "Prophecy in the New Millennium" proposes "[t]he sacrifices are a reminder of the necessity of the sacrifce for sins" but this too falls badly short of explaining why exactly expiatory sacrifices would be required in a restored Temple.

Why did God destroy the Temple in 70 AD? Are we really supposed to believe that after He has destroyed the Temple He now intends to restore it at some point in the future with its useless and offensive sacrifices?

Dispensationalists cannot come up with a single verse which indicates a future Jewish theocracy worshipping in a restored Temple.

Let's look again at Ezekiel chapters 40-48 which dispensationalists take to indicate a future earthly Temple. In all of the following verses of Ezekiel:

* 44:30;
* 45:1, 6, 7, 13, 16;
* 48:9, 10, 18, 20, 21.

The King James Verson uses the word "oblation". Strong's Concordance gives this word as # 8641 terumah a present (as offered up) espec. in sacrifice or as tribute etc.

the related word teruwmiyah (Strong's # 8642) is used in Ezekiel 48:12.

I have not even begun to address the usage of the term "expiation" in chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel. Memorial sacrifices can in no way be termed "expiations" yet this is what is required by the dispensational belief that these sacrifices must be restored!

Author:  mark malone [ Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have heard that or similar thesis before---and I understand where it comes from----

the "memorial" sacrifices in the temple are NOT a demeaning to the cross.... and here is why....

the men and woman who will live in the kingdom with "flesh and blood"(remember---flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God)

This is the "kingdom of heaven"

already here is some explaining to do...

God has promised to make new heavens and new earth---why---because sin has taken place in BOTH---SATAN and 1/3 or the angels rebelled in heaven, and man has sinned here on earth---GOD can not inherit anything where sin has "touched" it...

the 1000 year (messianic/millenial) kingdom is the "kingdom of heaven"---the GOSPEL OF MATTHEW, if one were to go back and read, is entirely about the "kingdom of heaven"--

i.e. heavan on earth.

matthew is also about the "son of david"---the very first verse describing JESUS' geneology is the "son of david."

why and how does JESUS have a connection to the "son of david"?---THE DAVIDIC COVENANT

matthew---a jew---is writing this geneology to show jews----who would know EXACTLY what he was referring to, that JESUS IS THE PROMISED MESSIAH = 'son of david'....

JESUS was known in scripture as the "son of david", the "son of God" and his favorite one...
the "son of Man".....

all these terms/titles are signifacant to bible prophesy.

back to matthew.....

one will see that many references in this book start with "the kingdom of heaven is like...."

and then analogies are drawn comparing who , what , where and how the life in the kingdom of heaven will be.

now ----DONT LOSE ME HERE----dont stop reading because I might type something you dont beleive...
let me finish..

you and I when we read matthew---because the LORD JESUS CHRIST is our savior---we should adhere to the teachings in matthew and apply them to our lives---BECAUSE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN SHOULD BE IN US....

but for disbelieving ISRAEL....the kingdom of heaven will literally take place on earth at JESUS' 2nd coming----

before JESUS sets up his kingdom on earth---sitting of he THRONE OF DAVID---which is important because God SPECIFICALLY told david he WOULD NEVER STOP having a heir to "his kingdom"(2 sam 7:16)

the throne of DAVID IS eternal---just like 2 sam 7:16 claims---and this throne is in heaven....thats why it is mentioned separately from the household and the kingdom in the same verse----did you notice how they were mentioned separately.....

non-believing Israel will incur, for 7 years---the wrath of GOD---IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

the anti-christ will set himself up on the rebuilt temple----HAVE YOU NOTICED THE HAPPENINGS IN ISRAEL---they are going to rebuild the temple---just like the bible says they will.....

the antichrist at the mid-point of the tribulation be indwelt by satan----after a false resurrection, and the WORLD---those that are left---will fall for it and he will be worshipped as God.....

At the end of the trib, JESUS CHRIST comes back and sets foot on mt zion----and with his voice will destroy all the nations that have come up to destroy ISRAEL...

i am going to start another post....

Author:  mark malone [ Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

you can find this end time battle in ezekiel 37-39...

the ones who survive the tribulation---according to revelation---ONLY 1/4th will---will be able to live in "flesh and blood" in the "kingdom of heaven" and ALL THESE PEOPLE---jew and gentile alike---will worship JESUS CHRIST---

"every knee shall bow--evey tongue confess---that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD"....amen

they will worship JESUS CHRIST in the rebuilt temple----and because they rejected CHRIST before he came----

remember JESUS kept saying----Israel requires a sign to beleive...I WILL NOT GIVE A SIGN....

you and me will live the MESSIANIC kingdom in "flesh and bone".....the SAME STATE JESUS had after the resurrection----and also some beleive the same state adam and eve had at creation----after the fall in the garden---GOD gave them "flesh and blood"

because CHRIST put off the "flesh and blood" by dying and resurrecting---HE can will himself to any point physically----just like all the scriptures in the gospels AFTER the resurrection---

remember the upper room---he just "appeared"----didnt open a door---didnt walk in from another room---HE just appeared.....

Thomas put his hand into the side and wounds of JESUS----no bleeding----

this the state YOU and me---because of our faith now---will be able to live with CHRIST in the"kingdom of heaven"----not only that----we will be kings, princes, and leaders of every sort in every nation, while the "flesh and blood" types will still have to live accordingly....

the "MEMORIAL services to the "flesh and blood" jews will be to show them HOW WRONG they were in not belieiving----and JESUS WILL SHOW how the levitical law and the 10 commandments were a "shadow" of the reality---HIM.....

IT IS THEIR FAITH----the same type of faith THOMAS ACQUIRED after seeing----that SAVES THEM---JUST LIKE YOU AND ME NOW....

NOT THE ACTUAL SACRIFICES....

and remember---this kingdom of heaven will be destroyed---this is still not a PERFECT KINGOM....

thats another reason why sacrifices will be able to be made----the eternal state will be AFTER this kingdom...

IT WONT BE A DEBATABLE TOPIC....

just like today----even though then every mouth confess JESUS....many will be giving 'lip service'....

not a true heart---and revelation 20 shows what happens to these people....satan, after being bound up by CHRIST at the beginning of the kingdom, WILL be let loose one more time---and the ones paying lip service will follow their "true" father--Satan.

but all will be thrown into the lake of fire at the GREAT WHITE THROWN JUDGEMENT....with death---the final thing thrown in also...

then the 'KINGOM OF God" comes---NEW JERUSALEM----where everyone whose names are written in the book of life will live eternity with God AND THE LAMB.... and rev 21 and 22 show some great and awesome things that will be there....

YOU and I WILL partake in these memorial services by being priests, servants and teachers with CHRIST to the jews and the "flesh and blood" group---

the sacrifices MEAN NOTHING for salvation---

its like taking part of the Eucharist now-----we are putting ourselve their---withJESUS---and remembering why HE died for us----and also why HE resurrected for us---to bring the FINAL VICTORY---over death....

rabbinical jews only know the "old way"---the levitical law----now you can kind of say----they will have to sit through 1000 years of remembering what they did----NOT ACCEPTING THE ONE AND ONLY SACRIFICE that counted


JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD....

but most of them will do it with JOY in their heart.

just like a HEBREW christian who celebrates the passover seder meal---EVERYTHING ABOUT that meal POINTS DIRECTLY to YESHUA THE MESHIACH
(JESUS theCHRIST).....

when NEW JERUSALEM comes down---we will put on our eternal state---the visibly spiritual state-----and God WILL BE ALL IN ALL...

Author:  mark malone [ Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

let me ask you this

IF THE TEMPLE IS REBUILT AGAIN---will you throw out that thesis????/

because the sanhedrin has already started up again aftr 1600 years....

they are REAL close to getting a "red heifer"---thats required for the start of the temple....

the moslems are now "considering" giving up the dome on the rock in exchange for land----

just them considering is AMAZING.....

be real careful and ask yourself these kind of questions....

the thesis you proposed is founded on the principal the "temple wont be rebuilt"....

the orthodox , if it is rebuilt---will believe that whoever does rebuild it---will be the MAN MESSIAH they think they are going to get---

but YOU and I KNOW DIFFERENT....

IT IS God....JESUS who is the CHRIST...

Author:  Polycarp [ Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
they are REAL close to getting a "red heifer"---thats required for the start of the temple....


Even if they find a red heifer, the Law requires that the ashes of the new red heifer be mixed with the remaining ashes of the previous red heifer. No one knows where those ashes are, or if they even exist any more. If they can't find those ashes, then there will not be the mandatory continuity from the pre-70 A.D. sacrifices and the sacrifices of this hypothetical new temple, and therefore the new sacrifices will be illegitimate.

Don't be surprised when the world ends without the ashes of the previous red heifer ever being found. There will be no return to the Old Covenant when Jesus comes back.

Author:  seanie [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:14 am ]
Post subject: 

Mark,

stand back for a moment and thinka bout what I wrote, because the vast majority of your reply is totally irrelevant, and presumes what it is trying to prove, namely, the existence of a future 1,000 year Jewish theocracy.

Now, if you would like to explain why the expiatory sacrifices of Ezekiel in some future restored temple are not going to be an abomination in God's eyes, please be so kind as to let us know.

Oh, and you can tell dispensational authors John F. Walvoord and Charles Ryrie too, because they have as much as admitted they are clueless.

Regrding the possibility of a future Temple, well Julian the Apostate had similar ideas, and Almighty God was not impressed them, He won't be in the future either.

The kingdm of God and the kingdom of heaven are one and the same. The throne of David and the throne of Christ are one and the same. Your attempt to separate them is unscriptural. Even the crowd at Dallas Theological Seminary (Blaising, Bock & co.) are waking up to this fact.

Regarding the "happenings in Israel" get wise Mark, there have been "end times happenings in Israel for decades. Ever hear of Hal Lindsey? Or Edgar Whisenant's "88 Reasons why the Rapture will happen in 1988"?

Come on pal, think for yourself.

Author:  seanie [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 

mark malone wrote:
let me ask you this

IF THE TEMPLE IS REBUILT AGAIN---will you throw out that thesis????/

because the sanhedrin has already started up again aftr 1600 years....

they are REAL close to getting a "red heifer"---thats required for the start of the temple....

the moslems are now "considering" giving up the dome on the rock in exchange for land----

just them considering is AMAZING.....

be real careful and ask yourself these kind of questions....

the thesis you proposed is founded on the principal the "temple wont be rebuilt"....

the orthodox , if it is rebuilt---will believe that whoever does rebuild it---will be the MAN MESSIAH they think they are going to get---

but YOU and I KNOW DIFFERENT....

IT IS God....JESUS who is the CHRIST...



No it's not, what I siad has nothing to do with whether the Temple is rebuilt or not. A rebuilt Temple would be "merely" an abominaiton in God's eyes, not some affirmation of dispensational theology.

Author:  seanie [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:21 am ]
Post subject: 

mark malone wrote:
YOU and I WILL partake in these memorial services by being priests, servants and teachers with CHRIST to the jews and the "flesh and blood" group---

the sacrifices MEAN NOTHING for salvation-


Wrong again Mark,

the verses in Ezekiel and Daniel refer to expiatory sacrifices as I explained earlier. Either you address this problem with dispensational theology or else simply admit you have no answer as to how these sacrifices would not be an abomination in God's eyes.

Author:  mark malone [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:40 am ]
Post subject: 

first let me point out the levitical sacrifices NEVER SAVED anyone---they covered sin--didnt wash them-- it was faith then as it is now---

read hebrews 11---these are people of faith--in the "promise"

I never said they WERE NOT expiatory...I said they dont save....

and I say this for you---if you and I had to make these sacrifices, THEY ARE AN ABOMINATION.

this is for lost jews/gentiles benefit only---the survivors of the G.T.

according to revelation---only 1 in 4 survive

lets use todays populaton--say 6 billion---thats still 1.5 billion entering the kingdom----AND EVERYONE of them will need CHRIST---they dont survive because of their faith---they survive ONLY because of God'S GRACE....

and I put to you the ones who dont or cant explain these sacrifices are perhaps FIRM believers in replacement theology---someone replaces JEWS as God'S chosen to be the "priest of nations"---to bring forth the MESSIAH, they are the NATURAL BRANCHES---GOD will be faithfull and give them every opportunity available----

these ceremonies with real sacrifice are for the non-believing jews benefit...

not for you and me....YOU AND I will be leaders in the kingdom---even teachers to the lost jews/gentiles about CHRIST

remember---A SIGN WILL NOT BE GIVEN---SO ONLY THE REAL THING WILL BE---JESUS CHRIST---and here HE is---right in front of them.

it wont be you and me having to make sacfrices for ourselves---these sacrifices are for the benefit of "LOST ISRAEL"---some will receive the truth with a "circumcised heart", and some will pay just lip service...

sacrifices will be made----NOT for the remission of sins, but as a PLAIN EXPLANATION to these jews why they need to accept CHRIST---and to remind them HE HAS ALREADY DONE IT...

remember while JESUS was here the first time---HE WAS A FAITHFUL JEW

he went to temple---WHERE THEY MADE SACRIFICES
he obeyed passover and the 8 feasts----including chanakuh--its in the gospels

he lived the law accordingly---NOT THAT HE HAD TO---HE IS THE REVELATION OF THE LAW....

the MESSIAH HAS TO BE A JEW....

remeber---these are JEWS---they are born under the law----they arent "christian/messianic jews yet....
they will be given the opportunity to accpept by faith with CHRIST right there in front of him----to be their once for all atoning sacrifice....

just like you and I are given that opportunity...

rabbinical jews do not accept this---but now in this temple---for 1000 years, lost jews will be given an opportunity to see CHRIST IS THE SACRIFICE...to become part of the body of CHRIST...

and revelation clearly shows NOT ALL WILL---EVEN WITH JESUS THERE.
their hearts are black----and at the end of the 1000 years, satan and these "black hearts" will rebel one last time---FOR NAUGHT. the lake of fire is their only destiny.

and remember----sacrifices in the Law only covered sin----they did not wash the offerer clean.
sin atonement was a constant on-going ritual...

We dont have to because we have CHRIST---ONCE FOR ALL...

they will be vivid reminders FOR your and my benefit of JESUS on the cross
once for all....

we are reminded all the time now---why should it be different then..

WE are NOT UNDER THE LAW---we are not jews....

we are NEW MEN----under CHRIST

these people will enter the kingdom because they survived the great trib---during the trib the world and Israel will be under the law and the prophets again because the church will be gone....
these "flesh and blood" jews, like Israel of the past will have to accept JESUS for their saviour----some will, some wont...
JEWS are born under the law of moses---even today---its a profession of CHRIST that saves all of us---jew or gentile...
we will already be with the LORD....

and come back with him...

Author:  mark malone [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:50 am ]
Post subject: 

thanx for discussing this topic----I CAN SEE YOU ARE VERY knowledgable and firmly believe what you do----

that is a GREAT AND UNIQUE trait to have---ESPECIALLY IN THE WORLD TODAY...

In Christ....

Author:  mark malone [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:52 am ]
Post subject: 

sean---

I'd like you to know my wife is a first generation american...

both her parents came from germany after WW2 and moved to arizona in the 1950's....

her maiden name is becker---her dads name was helmut---from neunrade

and her mother was erika ziemann from Bremen

Author:  seanie [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

mark malone wrote:
sean---

I'd like you to know my wife is a first generation american...

both her parents came from germany after WW2 and moved to arizona in the 1950's....

her maiden name is becker---her dads name was helmut---from neunrade

and her mother was erika ziemann from Bremen



Mark ,

I am Irish, my wife is German.

Bremen I've been to, Neunrade must be somewhere small.

Have you ever been over here?

Author:  seanie [ Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Mark,

my comments are in bold:

mark malone wrote:
first let me point out the levitical sacrifices NEVER SAVED anyone---they covered sin--didnt wash them-- it was faith then as it is now---

read hebrews 11---these are people of faith--in the "promise"

I never said they WERE NOT expiatory...I said they dont save....

I agree with what you say here, but there's a problem. Ezekiel specifically calls the sacrifices expiatory, in other words, they are offerings for sin. You and I both know they don't save (and never did) yet were commanded by God as sin offerings.

With the death of Christ, He has put an end to all these expiatory sacrifices. You agree with this don't you? Mark, did Jesus die for all men or only for some?



and I say this for you---if you and I had to make these sacrifices, THEY ARE AN ABOMINATION.

this is for lost jews/gentiles benefit only---the survivors of the G.T.

Wrong. The Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was accomplished for all people, there was no one for whom the Sacrifice of the Cross is not sufficient. The sin offerings of the Old Law were abolished at this point, once for all, never to be regarded as valid in God's eyes ever again.

But you see Mark what is happening now, you are requiring a 1,000 year Jewish theocracy on earth in order for the temple offerings in Ezekiel to have an earthly fulfillment.

This is very wrong. If the Jews continue ot reject the Atonemen tof Christ, the Old Law sacrifices will always be an abomination in God'S eyes, even in a suposed future Jewish theocracy. The prophecy of Ezekiel 40-48 is fulfilled in the Sacrifice of Christ in the heavenly kingdom. It is His Eternal Sacrifice which is presented here. Christ did not die and ascend to the Father just so He could come down for a 1,000 years and watch people make the same useless sacrifices which His own Priceless Sacrifice accomplished once for all.

Remember again, Ezekiel calls these temple sacrifices [b]expiatory,
that is, sin offerings. There is no way they can be viewed as simply memorials.[/b]



according to revelation---only 1 in 4 survive

lets use todays populaton--say 6 billion---thats still 1.5 billion entering the kingdom----AND EVERYONE of them will need CHRIST---they dont survive because of their faith---they survive ONLY because of God'S GRACE....

and I put to you the ones who dont or cant explain these sacrifices are perhaps FIRM believers in replacement theology---someone replaces JEWS as God'S chosen to be the "priest of nations"---to bring forth the MESSIAH, they are the NATURAL BRANCHES---GOD will be faithfull and give them every opportunity available----

these ceremonies with real sacrifice are for the non-believing jews benefit...

not for you and me....YOU AND I will be leaders in the kingdom---even teachers to the lost jews/gentiles about CHRIST

remember---A SIGN WILL NOT BE GIVEN---SO ONLY THE REAL THING WILL BE---JESUS CHRIST---and here HE is---right in front of them.

it wont be you and me having to make sacfrices for ourselves---these sacrifices are for the benefit of "LOST ISRAEL"---some will receive the truth with a "circumcised heart", and some will pay just lip service...

sacrifices will be made----NOT for the remission of sins, but as a PLAIN EXPLANATION to these jews why they need to accept CHRIST---and to remind them HE HAS ALREADY DONE IT...


This doesn't square with Scripture Mark. Ezekiel calls the sacrifices sin offerings. There is no way out of this except to accept that it refers to the Eternal offering of Chirst to the Father in the Temple of Heaven. The Jews are not going to get some second chance ina future theocracy, they have already had 2,000 years to turn to Him.



remember while JESUS was here the first time---HE WAS A FAITHFUL JEW

he went to temple---WHERE THEY MADE SACRIFICES
he obeyed passover and the 8 feasts----including chanakuh--its in the gospels

he lived the law accordingly---NOT THAT HE HAD TO---HE IS THE REVELATION OF THE LAW....

the MESSIAH HAS TO BE A JEW....

remeber---these are JEWS---they are born under the law----they arent "christian/messianic jews yet....
they will be given the opportunity to accpept by faith with CHRIST right there in front of him----to be their once for all atoning sacrifice....

just like you and I are given that opportunity...

rabbinical jews do not accept this---but now in this temple---for 1000 years, lost jews will be given an opportunity to see CHRIST IS THE SACRIFICE...to become part of the body of CHRIST...


None of this is relevant.


and revelation clearly shows NOT ALL WILL---EVEN WITH JESUS THERE.
their hearts are black----and at the end of the 1000 years, satan and these "black hearts" will rebel one last time---FOR NAUGHT. the lake of fire is their only destiny.

No, revelation doesn't show anything of the sort. It doesn't show a 1,000 year Jewish theocracy with Jesus sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem, giving the Jews one last chance. You yourself admitted earlier that the only reference to the 1,000 year theocracy is Revelation 20:3. However, this highly symbolic verse has nothing to say about Israel, or a millennial theocracy with Jesus sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem. Sorry Mark, but dispensational theology is only seeing what it wants to see, with no support from Scripture.


and remember----sacrifices in the Law only covered sin----they did not wash the offerer clean.
sin atonement was a constant on-going ritual...

We dont have to because we have CHRIST---ONCE FOR ALL...

they will be vivid reminders FOR your and my benefit of JESUS on the cross
once for all....

Once again, Ezekiel calls them sin offerings. How do you explain this?





Author:  mark malone [ Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:57 am ]
Post subject: 

I'd like to point out that the "jewish" theocracy in the Messianic kingdom is a "Messianic jewish" theocracry ruled by JESUS/YESHUA---but the temple to be rebuilt is for "rabbinical" jews---the non-believers in Christ----

and yes---these sacrifices are an abomination---AS THEY WERE AFTER JESUS died and ascended to the right hand of God....

for 40 years approx after JESUS ascended---these sacrifices took place at the temple----

until 70 a.d..

that is why the sin offerings by the non-believing jews at that time will ALSO not be counted, and JESUS and his servants will be there to let them know why....because JESUS died once for all.....

and it will be explained to them---BUT---just like today-----some accept the TRUTH---some dont....

a rabbinical jew --who isnt saved thru CHRIST---is a "slave to the law", they are born into it.

they will be forwarded GRACE like you and I were before we accepted CHRIST'S atonement----and YES it is an abomination----but the o.t has a EXTENDED PROOF how Israel kept angering God by falling apostate AFTER he continually renewed HIS relationship with them....

and just because something is an abomination---doesnt mean its instantly thrown in the "chaff" barrell...

like I pointed out before===the jewish temple still existed with the "abominable" expiatory sacrifices
40 YEARS AFTER CHRIST ASCENDED....

a "rabbinical" jew is going to be offered the GRACE of his/her "abominable" belief with mercy extended---

BUT like you and me---
IF THEY DENY THE TRUTH, they're in even more trouble than they were BEFORE they heard it.....

God'S grace and mercy are still present today....

there are rabinicals converting to christianity today---I met at least one in this forum...

and I regularly attend Zola Levitts forum
levitt.com

He is a Hebrew Christian---raised on the torah and ways of his fathers--rabbinism---and became a Christian in the 1970's....

I visited your sight---and I agree with how these things ARE ABOMINABLE---to you, me AND God...

but the purpose of Ezekiels temple is for jews---

and with JESUS reigning in HIS kingdom----how can they NOT believe-----

they still need to "circumcize" their heart----and this worhip will be carried over from the great tribulation-----where the sacrifice will already have been set up BEFORE the 2nd coming of CHRIST...

remember-0--by estimates of dispensationalism eschatology--based on revelation---

only 1 in 4 survive the great trib....

using today's estimates---thats between
1-1.5 BILLION who are going to need to convert....

and accept CHRIST---

at the 2nd coming---every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess----but not every HEART is "circumcised"....

the grace and mercy of the FATHER will be extended right to the very end----the GREAT WHITE THRONE judgement----and then

ZERO TOLERANCE---for NEW JERUSALEM...

if the temple is rebuilt soon----and the daily sacrifices for atonement are re-set up----
for us---THEY ARE SILLY AND ABOMINABLE
but for jews who are being "faithfull" to the TORAH, they are being obedient---YES---IT DOESNT HELP THEM

but only God, you and I know that----they STILL dont know that today...

God extends grace and mercy today----there are BILLIONS of non-beleivers---and yet they LIVE....

Author:  seanie [ Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

Mark,

read the Letter to the Hebrews. Read how the author pleads with the Hebrew priests to give up their useless sacrifices. You think God wants these abominations restored?

Do you still think God plans to restore the abominations of the Jewish Temple in the future.
Why do you think He destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. in the first place???????

So, let's get this straight. Jesus climbs off His throne in heaven to sit on an earthly throne, while the abominations are going on in the restored Temple, the ones that Ezekiel's prophecy says are ordered by God?

Now come on, Mark. The Jews in this supposed earthly Millennium who supposedly don't know any better, offering their abomination while Jesus looks on. How about we give them a copy of the Letter to the Hebrews, what do you think?

I'd like to know why you're making excuses for those who reject Christ.
The non-believers in Christ will be destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming, like it or not. Mercy is being extended to the rabbinical Jews today, Mark. If the Jews don't accept it they are doomed, no second chances. The only reason the Temple wasn't destroyed immediately in 30 AD was to give the Jews time to repent.

Don't you think 2,0000 + years is enough time? You want to give them a chance to repeat their abominations after 2,000 years of rejecting grace?

Author:  mark malone [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:42 pm ]
Post subject: 

its not what I think friend---its what the bible says...

here is romans 9:6-7
6) It is not as though God's word had failed. for not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7) Nor because they are his descendents are they all abrahams children. On the contrary,"It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
8) In other words, it is not the natural children who are God'S children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as abrahams offspring.

looks like the bible (God'S WORD) agrees with you so far---I DO---but there is more...

you mentioned jews have had 2000 years---YOU and the BIBLE are correct....

A) "partial" rejection of Israel...

romans 11:1
I ask then: Did God reject his people(israel)? By no means! I am an israelite myself, a descendent of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

verses 2-5 I'll let you read---basically its just giving the example of Elijah when in his day after apostate Israel tore down the altar and killed prophets, elijah thought he was the only one left.
but an example was set---TO SHOW GODS grace and mercy to all Israel--HE always leaves a remnant.... to continue with that thought...

verses 7-10 gives examples of some Israel believing, some Israel not believing...

B) "purpose" of Israel's rejection...

romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!! Rather because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles to make Israel envious.

God is revealing his plan--gentiles are now given the gospel to make Israel jealous----I think you'd agree rabbinicals kind of loath christians---especially the "gentile" ones...

11:15(addressing gentile christians---you and me)
for if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what "will" their acceptance be but life from the dead.

C) how long will they be rejected?.....

romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

the hardening of Israel is partial and temporary--until the fullness of gentiles is complete---the 2nd coming.

romans 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27) And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

remember---Christ has already come the 1st time when this is written---so the passage is referring to the 2nd coming...WHEN ISRAEL will accept JESUS as the promised messiah...

28) As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account;(you and I will agree on this---they are our spiritual enemies without Christ)
But as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.

29-32 compares your and my journey to Christ---how we went without HIS GRACE and then accepted it---and then says its the exact same way with ISRAEL---so he can display HIS mercy to them....

you see---GOD IS NOT FINISHED with israel---ON ACCOUNT of the promises he made abraham, david and the prophets...

so ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED....

the 2nd coming isnt the end of the world----its not even the end of the age....the end of the messianic kingdom is the end of the age, then new heavens and new earth---and finally --NEW JERUSALEM.

speaking of that---here is NEW jerusalem...

the "foundation" is the church

rev 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles...

remember peter---upon this rock....followers of the 12 apostles.. FAITH is the foundation of the KINGDOM OF God.
you always build from the foundation up---need a solid foundation...

here is the city up on the foundation...

rev 21:12
It had a great, high wall with twelve gates. and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.

the 12 tribes of israel---it CANT be "spiritually or symbolically" the church---the foundation is the church

the gates are what people walk through---who did the MESSIAH come through????

answer is ISRAEL---JESUS a jew came through Israel----and they will be placed upon the foundation----FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS--the church starts it---though in the bible we are 2nd(new testament), and Israel finishes it---though in the bible they are 1st(old testament)....

matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first will be last.

JESUS speaking on what the kingdom will be like...

God doesnt lie OR change his mind----

God chose Israel to be the "priest" of nations...

but when they became apostate---he promised them a NEW COVENANT---in jeremiah 31:31-34

remember---there is NO CHURCH in the time of jeremiah---HE IS TALKING SPECIFICALLY ISRAEL/JEWS.....

and today---even you admit---THEY HAVE REJECTED the gospel---but its to make them JEALOUS thru us---"nations not knowing me"....

at the 2nd coming---for israels sake---Israel will receive the new covenant in jeremiah---and then they will NEED to accept Christ----approx 1 billion people---jews and gentiles---non-believers.

Author:  seanie [ Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

Mark,

why don't you just stop the irrelevant quotations and answer the simple questions: why do dispensationalists believe the sacrifices in the temple are to be restored when such practices are an abomination in God's eyes?

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