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 Post subject: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:51 am 
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What is the difference between how the Church sees rights and religious liberty now vs how it saw it prior to Vatican 2?

It's not clear to me how the Church, even under a monarchy, authorized others to practice their faith and what rights meant to them in this context. Could they impose catholic things to non-catholics?

It doesn't make sense to me to speak of rights in a way that connects it straight to God in a context of the democracy the US finds itself in. It's like speaking German to people that don't understand you or can't relate.

How does the Church mean it now vs how it meant it before?

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:50 pm 
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Have you read Thomas Pink on this? His basic thesis is that the only change doctrinally is

1. Vis a vis 'natural religion' the state only has an inherent right to act when religious beliefs or practices hurt the public peace, or morals (I disagree, or rather, think this is incoherent as atheism, e.g, is intrinsically against public morality)

2. That the use of coercive power by the state in support of the Catholic faith relies on the Church's delegation of such, without which the state is limited to what disturbs public peace, morals or the liberty of the Catholic Church (yes, even then a special place)

Something like number two must be true, or Vatican II committed grave error. The thesis that Vatican II doctrinally abandoned or rejected previous teaching would render DH an erroneous document, and a mendacious one.

See, it explicitly states it affirms the past teaching, keeps intact the duty of the State to the True Religion. Either what was taught before is held intact, or DH is in error. No other option

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Have you read Thomas Pink on this? His basic thesis is that the only change doctrinally is

1. Vis a vis 'natural religion' the state only has an inherent right to act when religious beliefs or practices hurt the public peace, or morals (I disagree, or rather, think this is incoherent as atheism, e.g, is intrinsically against public morality)

2. That the use of coercive power by the state in support of the Catholic faith relies on the Church's delegation of such, without which the state is limited to what disturbs public peace, morals or the liberty of the Catholic Church (yes, even then a special place)

Something like number two must be true, or Vatican II committed grave error. The thesis that Vatican II doctrinally abandoned or rejected previous teaching would render DH an erroneous document, and a mendacious one.

See, it explicitly states it affirms the past teaching, keeps intact the duty of the State to the True Religion. Either what was taught before is held intact, or DH is in error. No other option


I contemplated that the duty owed to the True Religion could be (somehow) accomplished through just legislative enactures. That is the best we could hope for given the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:50 am 
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The other side to this question is how far is the Church authorized to coerce into the lives of Catholics and non-catholics? Can it send the faithful to jail for eating meat on Friday? That sort of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:53 pm 
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The Church proposes. It does not coerce. A priest will not be pounding on your door on Monday if you missed Mass on Sunday. God will not force anyone to love Him.

For non-Catholics, it needs to be recognized that freedom of religion is for the public good. The violent and unstable Christian is not representative of the whole. In the 1980s, the American Civil Liberties Union went to court over Nativities in front of public buildings. No one had to look at them or put money in them. So, local groups leased a plot of land nearby to display the Nativity. In a suburb local to me, retail stores played Christmas music. Someone was offended. After a legal ruling, the store owners could still play the music, but only the version without the words.


Last edited by Amon98 on Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:47 am 
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Amon98 wrote:
The Church proposes. It does not coerce. A priest will not be pounding on your door on Monday if you missed Mass on Sunday. God will not force anyone to love Him.

For non-Catholics, it needs to be recognized that freedom of religion is for the public good. The violent and unstable Christian is not representative of the whole. In the 1980s, the American Civil Liberties Union went to count over Nativities in front of public buildings. No one had to look at them or put money in them. So, local groups leased a plot of land nearby to display the Nativity. In a suburb local to me, retail stores played Christmas music. Someone was offended. After a legal ruling, the store owners could still play the music, but only the version without the words.

It is a dogma of the faith that the baptised may be coerced to keep the faith. And the coercive authority is still a principle of canon law. You are just repeating warmed over liberalism

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:24 am 
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Does this extend to those baptised and raised Protestant?

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:49 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
The Church proposes. It does not coerce. A priest will not be pounding on your door on Monday if you missed Mass on Sunday. God will not force anyone to love Him.

For non-Catholics, it needs to be recognized that freedom of religion is for the public good. The violent and unstable Christian is not representative of the whole. In the 1980s, the American Civil Liberties Union went to count over Nativities in front of public buildings. No one had to look at them or put money in them. So, local groups leased a plot of land nearby to display the Nativity. In a suburb local to me, retail stores played Christmas music. Someone was offended. After a legal ruling, the store owners could still play the music, but only the version without the words.

It is a dogma of the faith that the baptised may be coerced to keep the faith. And the coercive authority is still a principle of canon law. You are just repeating warmed over liberalism



"coerced to keep the faith"? Please provide a few examples.


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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:30 pm 
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Council of Trent, Session 7, On Baptism, canon 14

1917 CIC can. 2198

Canon 1311 of the 1983 CIC

Pope Benedict XVI, Homily, Solemnity of the Sacred Heart 2010

Add to that Mirari vos, Libertas, etc

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:18 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Does this extend to those baptised and raised Protestant?

The Church has jurisdiction over all of the baptized

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:13 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Council of Trent, Session 7, On Baptism, canon 14

1917 CIC can. 2198

Canon 1311 of the 1983 CIC

Pope Benedict XVI, Homily, Solemnity of the Sacred Heart 2010

Add to that Mirari vos, Libertas, etc


So what of those who are not of the faith?

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:20 pm 
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The Church also has jurisdiction over the unbaptized in their relations with the baptized

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
The Church also has jurisdiction over the unbaptized in their relations with the baptized


That sounds limited. Not sure how that looks like in practice.

They could practice their faith I assume?

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:05 am 
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Dominic wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
The Church also has jurisdiction over the unbaptized in their relations with the baptized


That sounds limited. Not sure how that looks like in practice.

They could practice their faith I assume?

Their religion is to be tolerated, unless

1. It threatens public peace (e.g a religious movement aiming at civil war)
2. It endangers public morals- or at least the practice of immorality and/or promotion of it may be suppressed (we wouldn't allow human sacrifice!)
3. It infringes on the liberty of the Church and the one true Faith.

But this only applies to the unbaptized... Christians belonging to various sects are another story. For the most part since the decree Ne Temere in 1903, they are exempted from purely ecclesial precepts (e.g pertaining to marriage). But they are still wholly under Holy Mother Church's jurisdiction

And of course, except maybe from 1983 to 2008, any who has at any point professed the Catholic faith is still wholly bound by canonical precepts

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:12 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
The Church also has jurisdiction over the unbaptized in their relations with the baptized


That sounds limited. Not sure how that looks like in practice.

They could practice their faith I assume?

Their religion is to be tolerated, unless

1. It threatens public peace (e.g a religious movement aiming at civil war)
2. It endangers public morals- or at least the practice of immorality and/or promotion of it may be suppressed (we wouldn't allow human sacrifice!)
3. It infringes on the liberty of the Church and the one true Faith.

But this only applies to the unbaptized... Christians belonging to various sects are another story. For the most part since the decree Ne Temere in 1903, they are exempted from purely ecclesial precepts (e.g pertaining to marriage). But they are still wholly under Holy Mother Church's jurisdiction

And of course, except maybe from 1983 to 2008, any who has at any point professed the Catholic faith is still wholly bound by canonical precepts


Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:01 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
The Church also has jurisdiction over the unbaptized in their relations with the baptized


That sounds limited. Not sure how that looks like in practice.

They could practice their faith I assume?

Their religion is to be tolerated, unless

1. It threatens public peace (e.g a religious movement aiming at civil war)
2. It endangers public morals- or at least the practice of immorality and/or promotion of it may be suppressed (we wouldn't allow human sacrifice!)
3. It infringes on the liberty of the Church and the one true Faith.

But this only applies to the unbaptized... Christians belonging to various sects are another story. For the most part since the decree Ne Temere in 1903, they are exempted from purely ecclesial precepts (e.g pertaining to marriage). But they are still wholly under Holy Mother Church's jurisdiction

And of course, except maybe from 1983 to 2008, any who has at any point professed the Catholic faith is still wholly bound by canonical precepts


All the baptized under the authority of the Church even though all those in the sects have never recognized her as such. It's not the lack of recognition per se (like a child angry at his parents), it's just completely foreign and unrecognizable to most of them. Like telling a child the same and they would simply stare at you.

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 Post subject: Re: Rights and Religious Liberty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:26 am 
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Relevant to this topic and hot off the press.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKuMCnKnv6E

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